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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Sep 2004 : 2:39:17 PM
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There has been a suggestion that the HMRAV make the Junior Post Classic Sidecar either 750cc or even 836cc.
Can you please give us feedback. We have tried to get the 650cc segment going but nobody is coming to play, would a lift in capacity do it? The unlimited would still continue as what ever 13 litres or so.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2004 : 10:03:44 PM
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Hi John,
I wouldnt do anything yet, information I have indicates that MA, not the Commission, are intending to enforce manufacturers capacity in the very near future. This might resolve your particular issue but it should if implemented decimate our numbers far more than anyone could imagine.
I am surprised that you werent aware of this as my info came out of Victoria.
Keep up the good work.
Alan
WA sidecar21 |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2004 : 11:36:26 PM
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I have heard the rumour also. But since I am also aware { from asking around} that most states voted against Manufacturers capacity, that in the democratic system we have it will not get up.
How could it, surely MA will not arbitarily force something rejected by racers on racers without slapping everybody in the face.
So the idea was floated by a committee member to encourage more outfits to enter races. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Geoffpgrant
Level 3 Member
South Australia
204 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2004 : 2:25:28 PM
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Hi,
I certainly agree with limiting sizes of engines but there must be allowance for what was available 'in the period'. This would mean that Post Classic would then be 836 for Hondas but there would be no reason why you could not run a Vincent if you wished so I don't think that a blanket limit is appropriate. Equally I do not think that imposing size at manufacture is appropriate. Almost no Hondas would have been raced as a 750. Either an 810 or 836 kit would have been used. To that end most of us are old enough to remember what was actually available 'in the period' so setting the rules should be easy.
As for the fear that we would lose some competitors - well that can easily be addressed by creating a class for all the monsters that use modern parts to take their K2 out to 1160 cc!! I also think that we would gain at least as many as we lose because those who are disillusioned by the fact that it is impossible to beat these bikes with a bike that is built 'in the spirit of the period' might come out of the shed again.
John, I was also interested in your comment that 'all the states voted against it' in relation to manufacturers size. Perhaps you can let me know how the vote was conducted. There has certainly not been any mention of this vote (or even the concept being discussed) in any of the minutes I have read nor verbally at any meeting reports. I can't help but feel that all of the states did not have a say in this! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2004 : 2:52:55 PM
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| the talks are still continuing and that has been the drift so far. In SA apparently there is no formal Historic Management Committee, the club that Phil Buorne is with seems to operate as a defacto HMC. But I would encourage one to be created so each Historic racers gets to speak with a commission. Also, its easier to work with MA as a state based commission than as an individual. Does that help? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
48 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2004 : 10:04:50 PM
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| You shouldn't call it junior sidecar if you set a capacity limit of 750cc or 836cc. Juniors were 650cc and should remain so. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2004 : 07:43:06 AM
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Point taken, we actually have a Junior capacity set at 650cc and nobody is coming to play. The idea is to abandon that for the time being and try a new class. I incorrectly carried the name over with the suggestion.
But it begs the question, if we have a class that nobody runs in can we use the name. Otherwise do you have a suggestion Garry? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2004 : 9:45:50 PM
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John what is wrong with the current situation for sidecars? I do not believe its a class thing but rather the issue of very expensive over bored rockets that demoralise the average Joe blow. Why not support going back to running what was available in the period instead of manipulating the rules so as to allow the combination of the sum of best parts to compete. The best example of this are the Honda`s of course, while the engineering of these machines is quite remarkable they are not in the spirit of what historic racing should be about. If you go back to December 31st 1972 I believe you would find that the largest normal big bore kit for a Honda was 810cc stretch it a little and say an 836 could be allowed. If this was enforced then bikes like mine a Suzuki GT 750 powered outfit, actual capacity 738cc, would be almost competitive along with well prepared Triumph Tridents, Norton Commandos and maybe even the odd BSA. This obviously couldnt be changed over night but given a 2 or 3 year lead in should give everyone the opportunity to rebuild their engines back to close to standard as they wear out or explode. I do not believe adding another class is the answer as our fields are already small and this wouldnt add sufficient numbers to make it worth while. We need to have a more level playing field to encourage greater participation.
Just my thoughts on the matter but for further proof have a look at moderns in this country, Formula 2 hasnt exactly taken off and based on coast etc it certainly should have as it has in Europe.
Alan sidecar 21 WA |
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Geoffpgrant
Level 3 Member
South Australia
204 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2004 : 9:48:23 PM
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Why not leave the name as it is for the 'real' Post Classics and create a new name for those who flaunt the 'spirit'? This would mean that you would not have to create a whole new set of rules for the Posties. The rules as they stand would be fine as long as the spirit of the period is applied ie engine sizes that actually existed then. The new class for the modern versions could then simply run the same rules but without limitations on engine modifications. This would allow the rich to build their monsters whilst enabling the rest of us to race against each other on a more level playing field.
Geoff
Sidecar #30 |
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Former Member
deleted
174 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2004 : 03:45:51 AM
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Geoff you are spot on with your comments,
I currently run a dead stock GSX1100 P5 outfit and up until the Southern Classic feature race on Sunday arvo my bike has never played up on me since I bought it in November 2003.
The engine known as "Mr Reliable" has got me through the 2003 Geelong Speed Trials
2004 Vic Historic Titles
2004 Interclub Series 3 rounds so far
Sidecar intro day at broady
6-7 practice days
and a few meaty burnouts in front of the house,
and the 2004 Southern Classic until Sunday!!!
Although the good news is the motor was still running bloody strong until the bent 3rd gear selector fork finished our day off.
Getting replaced in a week or two,ready for the Interclub.Should cost about 3 stubbies to fix.
I always thought that the 836kit was available from Honda so it should be allowed.
What gets me is a that Ive personally seen an "alleged" P4 Honda750 outfit outrun a P5 Suzuki 1100.
Meth cant make that much power in a Honda with out it being so off its face its not funny...not real fair to the guys running a budget 810/836 package and getting blown away every time they race.
I believe the 5% capacity limit has a lot of merit, getting bikes to be more reliable and cost less to race is a sure way of getting some of the bikes back to the meets.
If a competitor wants to flaunt it they should be made run with the next period up.
This is a bit of an idea your opinions are welcome on this
Period 4 should be capped at about 850-870cc this would allow Joe Average to be competitive on a more realistic budget.
Period 5 should remain at 1300cc
If a P4 racer wants to develop their bike into something that resembles the next period than they should be put into a higher class until their bike is put back into its correct state in its correct racing period.Period.
The people who dont want 5% limits are most likely the cheats who dont want their unrealistic bikes beaten by a fair system.
I hope that a fair and just system prevails in the future as the illegal bikes are making a mockery of current historic racing...
Cheers
Neill
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Its not what you ride,Its how fast you ride it!!! |
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Former Member
deleted
174 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2004 : 03:57:37 AM
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Al,Why would most bother with an F2 when Australia still allows the big bores to run.They only race 600's the I.O.M etc.
As a good 600 will cost nearly as much as a 1000/1200 in some places it makes sense to go with the 1000/1200 due to HP V's $ factor.
We need some sort of "open slather" class to pick up the bikes that dont conform to current regs.
Cheers
Neill
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Its not what you ride,Its how fast you ride it!!! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2004 : 07:51:55 AM
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I have always been talking about an internal HMRAV class at this stage. There are many Postie outfits sitting around. The plan was to leave the big bore stuff and then establish a "XXX name" class under it for them. I was hoping to simply alter our existing 650cc rules which have very definative restrictions on fairing shapes etc so when they are on the track they look different from others but look the same as each other. The plan is to use the oroginal cigar shape. This would keep fairing costs down. I can re print the rules if you like. They whole idea was to create a limit to variations from the 1972 look and with standaised fairings etc create a marketing opportunity. Much the same way as the Aussie cars do.
At the other end of the field would be the big bore stuff because we still need numbers and the bikes, including mine are out there. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 4:03:25 PM
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I think we have gone around enough.
I will be proposing to the committee that we try an extra "under class" called 836cc 4 stroke Class for Period 4 on the basis that if we dont try something now, the problem of no sidecars at the 2005 Island Classic will creep across Australia.
I am not precious about the use of the Junior name, but since I am hoping we may get lucky I am suggesting this move. It will permit both big bore bikes and new / revived 836 cc bikes to front. Themn we will have removed every ezcuse other than expence to go racing. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 23 Dec 2004 01:10:04 AM |
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Former Member
deleted
174 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 02:06:14 AM
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| You have my vote there JD |
Its not what you ride,Its how fast you ride it!!! |
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Geoffpgrant
Level 3 Member
South Australia
204 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 6:25:19 PM
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Sorry John, I still can't help feeling that you are missing what I think is the point of all the previous discussion. The 836 capacity should apply to Hondas because that is then in the 'spirit of the period'. There should not be an 836 capacity limit across the board because some motors (ie Vincents) were larger than that standard and we do not want to tell people they cannot run something like that.
I have said a few times in different forums that what we need to do is ENFORCE the rules as they stand. Fire breathing monster Hondas are NOT 'of the period' and should not be allowed to race.
As Alan said on the 5th of Oct above, "Why not support going back to running what was available in the period". The rules cover that now, they are simply not enforced! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 01:07:06 AM
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I have not missed it, the plan is for big bore anythings to continue to run in the same event, same grid etc.
The horse has bolted about engine capacities, people need to live with that. If they were banned we would have even more teams jacked off.
Everybody has talked but not a single club has tried in recent times. I may get rolled but at least I would like to go down presenting a case that MAY get more bikes overall to the grid. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 01:11:42 AM
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| Garry I have just remembered, the Junior class was 500cc once so I dont know it is that important today. But lets not get pushy about it all the same. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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