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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 1:46:49 PM
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Hiya All,
As I am a bit of a greenie at heart, I am interested in trying to use a 50/50 blend of Ethanol and petrol in the CB. Apparently, this can be done with good cooling effects and power gains. This also appeals as ethanol blends easily with petrol and is pretty much non-toxic, which is always good. Also, as Ethanol has around 35% oxygen, I figure the jetting should be increased by around 17.5% in order to take the increase in oxygen into account (in a 50/50 blend).
Any thoughts?
Thanks and Cheers,
Ben.
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 4:11:08 PM
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Dont forget to allow for somebody siphoning some out to mix with the Jack Daniels, and of course you will need to allow for the greater evaporation rate, the fact the carbies need to be drained and mixing some SLO for protection.
Then you need to increase the brakes because of all this extra power and dont forget the greenie stickers to promote the cause!
Also since it sucks in water you need great seals on containers and only buy what you can use fairly quickly. Also, dont forget you cant see it burning either. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 4:32:13 PM
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Thanks John, excellent advice....... : ). But really, if people are not doing this (using ethanol), why not?
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 5:19:29 PM
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| You need to increase the compression ratio, it is a lot more fiddler tan petrol and perhaps the gains are not worth the extra cost and hassle. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 6:47:55 PM
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There used to be a couple of blends available years ago - BP JA and BP JB. They were 60-70% methanol, 30-40% methanol, with acetone as a blending agent. These blends were great in bikes at 11 to 1 comp, actually better powerwise than straight methanol. They were actually developed for Maseratis in the thirties.
Ethaanol doesn't give the sane supercharging effect as methanol, but it will still give some benefit.
The problen arises in controlling the composition of the blend when mixing small batches. If you can make a 200 litre drum its actually easier to control, but then you might have problems keeping the moisture out.
I suggest you would have to use 10 per cent acetone, and this might be expensive. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 6:55:31 PM
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The chemically bonded oxygen in ethanol would be a reason to DECREASE jetting as the ethanol is partly oxidised already compared with a straight hydrocarbon. The INCREASE in jetting needed is due to the latent heat of vaporisation, which cools the incoming charge, introduces more air, which needs more fuel.
The only time chemically bonded oxygen causes an increase in jetting is when nitro groups are involved as in nitromethane, and nitrobenzene. You won't be using them as they react spontaneously with the usual hydrocarbons in petrol, and can cause fires and explosions.
Take Care!!! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 6:59:45 PM
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| Sorry, a mistake in the previous post. BP JA and JB were 60-70% benzene which is Poisonous - causes blood changes and luekemia |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 7:05:37 PM
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John, methanol or ethanol fuels can be used in low comp engines with benefit. My Norton is on 9 to 1 and still gets a kick because the fuel works on latent heat for its supercharging effect.
The thing about comp ratios is that methanol has unlimited antiknock, and you can run very high comps with it if you want to, with power benefit.
There is one thing about using ethanol. It has a lower calorific value than usual hydrocarbons, so you lose a bit when you replace the petrol with it. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 7:07:48 PM
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What we need is a fuel with the calorific value of petrol, and the latent heat of vaporisation and antiknock of water.
COMBUSTIBLE WATER - THAT'S THE WAY TO GO!! |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 7:47:18 PM
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| seems like the arm chair experts are dribbling again. the ma bible says you can use petrol or meth and thats it, bundy, JD, ethanol or rocket fuel arnt there. alan i think your copying out of the wrong book. |
Jayne |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 10:03:11 PM
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| As a point of interest, I thought Methanol and Ethanol are essentailly the same thing but derived by different process's. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
174 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2004 : 02:22:15 AM
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Be careful not to confuse ETHANOL with METHANOL!
Ethanol is a renewable energy fuel fuel made from sugar crops, such as sugar cane and corn. Methanol, on the other hand is made from fossil fuels such as coal and natural gas.
Methanol or methyl alcohol is a clear colorless liquid that can be made from a variety of fossil fuel sources including coal and natural gas. All methanol used commercially is manufactured from natural gas because this is by far the most economical way.
Wherever natural gas is unavailable methanol is manufactured from coal.
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Its not what you ride,Its how fast you ride it!!! |
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Former Member
deleted
174 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2004 : 02:48:33 AM
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Ethanol has about 35% oxygen in its chemical structure make up making it useful for blending with pertol(hydrocarbons).
The fuel companies are alredy blending it into your fuel and have been for years.
The boffins worked out that a 10% ethanol/90% hydrocarbon mix has the ultimate burn rate.
If you add to much E all you do is oxidize your fuel to much and it wont burn and go bang as hard.
As for 100% Nitromethane it by itself wont burn cause its an oxidizer.Most of the Nitro bought will go bang as it has anywhere between 10-70% methanol as a blender.
Top Fuellers are the guys with the know on nitro based fuels.
As to your question Ben I really wouldnt bother as it is a harder fuel to tune for and the power gains really arnt there compared to meth.
The way things are going anyway I would look into premium unleadeds as June 2005 is gunna be fun!!! |
Its not what you ride,Its how fast you ride it!!! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2004 : 07:34:33 AM
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Thanks Neill.
Whats happening in Jume 2005? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2004 : 08:34:23 AM
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Neill, where did you get this stuff about nitromethane not burning. It will actually explode. The nitro groups on the compound mean that the material can self-oxidise. The oxygen in ethanol is not available for combustion in the same way. The oxidation states are hydrocarbon, alchol, ketone/aldehyde/organic acid, in that order. the organic acid and CO2/water are the
It's been said 'a little knowledge is dangerous'. When you play with nitromethane or any other nitro compound, you can blow your head off!
I was employed for about five years as Head of Labs in Explosives Factory Maribyrnong, where we manufactured nitroglycerine and propylene glycol dinitrate. I know what it's like to stand over a vat containing 100 kg of NG |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2004 : 08:39:32 AM
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John, the Alcohol you drink in beer etc is ethanol. Methanol is a different compound. It is poisonous. It will send you blind and insane quite quickly, as some [edit by site]Native Australian's[/edit by site] found out in WA in WW2, when they drank torpedo fuel.
Methanol is made by destructive distillation of organic material. The reason distillation is prohibited in Australia, is that if you burn the corn mash while distilling corn likker, you get traces of methanol, along with the ethanol.
Methanol is a cumulative poison, or rather the effects are cumulative. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2004 : 10:33:34 PM
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John, In June 2005 or to be precise on June 30th the use of leaded fuels (avgas) will cease to be allowed. I have contacted Ross Martin to verify this but from information provided to us when I was on the Commission which was published in Commission Minutes it was a directive by Environment Australia.
Cams in WA are trying to get an exemption but do not hold out much hope of getting one and the bowser at Wannerroo will not be refilled after the end of this calendar year so it does look like its for real.
If I get a reply from Ross and its not confidential I will pass the info on via this site.
Alan Sidecar 21 (yes I have a number) |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 09:43:51 AM
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| Alan, how can correspondance about the legality of Avgas in June 2005 be a confidential issue? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 1:17:51 PM
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| Thats becoz Ross Martin has screwed up so badly this year that MA has banned him send out anything until its checked by the office. treat anything with Ross Martins signature as suspect advice, just ask all the people who have got apologies from MA after hes said something. we've known for a while that the lead petrol books were tempory so whats the problem. |
Jayne |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 3:50:13 PM
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Whats the problem, Nobody knows when the cut off date is.
Some have expressed a concern and dispite some being in the knowledge not all are. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Former Member
deleted
120 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 5:27:02 PM
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| sorry your right johnboy, we thought leaded or anything you had to use the fuel book to buy finished at the end of the year, didn't know about the june 2005 date. bryan paine is the one to ring at MA for a true answer to anything. |
Jayne |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 12:48:42 AM
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John, check back in your filing sustem and read the Commission Minutes from either 2001, 2002 or maybe 2003, I think it will be in 2002 but cant remember for sure but it was published in them at the time.
Before everyone goes off half cocked there is the chance that Environment Australia will change its mind or allow an extention before enforcing their directive.
John in answer to your comment about confidentiality I do not really expect a reply so it isnt an issue. The first we will know is when the fuel is no longer available.
I havent used them for some time but I wouldnt be bothered changing my Goldies or Aermacchi over, they can become ornaments in the games room. Give the wife something more to dust.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
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Former Member
deleted
174 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2004 : 02:45:16 AM
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The aviation idustry has known about this since 96-97.
Its definatly no surprise.
Why would you bother MA about questions when there is not a lick of **** they can do about it.
CASA,FAA and other regulatory bodies are the ones to ring.
As for putting the bikes off track it will be small fry compared to how many planes(light) get grounded awaiting engine refurbs to cope with a new unleaded fuel.
Al,put a puddle of nitro on the ground (2cc) and try and light it with a cigarette lighter,betcha it wont ignite and "Blow your head off".
If you are real real lucky you may just see a blueish flame for a split second.
But and I stipulate "But" put the same amount of nitro on the ground and hit it with a hammer causing a spark and compression it will go "Poomph" and create a bit of a shock wave.
I know I tried!!!For 4 hours at the sacrifice of an engine rebuild on the outfit.
You need compression and spark to get it burning unlike petrol which will ignite with just a spark.
I dont need to have a fancy lab to work that one out and standing over a vat of nitroglyc is a good way to remove yourself from the gene pool.
But this will be all irrelavent soon anyway as "Nitro" will be a thing of the past cause of one certain "Oklahoma" individual.Thanks Timmy!!!Riblaah... |
Its not what you ride,Its how fast you ride it!!! |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2004 : 09:08:09 AM
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Hiya All,
Thanks for the replies, I stay away for a few days and come back to 20 or mre replies! Sounds like the Ethanol could be a goer, I don't really want to use Methanol due to it's toxicity and given that Avgas may be out it seems like a good choice. Snoozer, this is called discussion, not armchair racing. I am developing a bike for the first time and need all the help I can get. Also, I checked the rule book as well, it dosen't say you can't use it either......I have written to MV just in case.
Cheers. |
Try Everything |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2005 : 7:08:20 PM
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Ben, I noticed this posting about using ethanol in the honda. The way methanol works has nothing to do with oxygen content. It's all about latent heat of vaporisation. If water was combustible it'd work better than methanol.
Ethanol has a higher latent heat of vaporisation than petrol, so the chemical supercharging effect is greater. however it isn't as effective as methanol, and the calorific value is lower, so you dont get as much energy per kilogram.
If you blended it with acetone and methyl benzine you could get something that was relatively cheap, and would give a power boost. Trick is to get a consistent mix so you don't have to rejet all the time.
Oxygen content only applies to nitro compounds, where the fuel supplies it's own oxygen. Methanol doesn't work that way.
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell
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