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matcho mick
Advanced Member
New South Wales
570 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 11:57:46 AM
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no John,you havn't missed anything!,AC has!,we don't need another b****y website to distract us,(there's too many now??),Old Donk,if the newbies need info on K series 350's(not just 500/4 looka likes??),they just need only to read/referr to the "saga" in Post Classic forum section,14,800 odd hits says something for interest generated i would think,(nb AC ,theres a picture of Bens 350 in there too!!) |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 4:55:24 PM
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Old donks topic is about promoting the Bike as a group and encouraging people to race CB350 Hondas. I actually put something up during taht period when teh site was hacked. In that topic I explained the benefits we had gained by promotion for sidecars and that promotion came as a result of observations of mine with other racing groupd around the world.
I am hoping people see that success, and take similar steps to build racer numbers. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 6:50:33 PM
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Well, well, I can't leave you guys alone for two minutes can I? I am away for a couple of days and mayhem breaks loose. Olddonk, I was just pointing out that classic racing is now not an inexpensive pastime and that considerable faith needs to be shown by a neeeewbie in commitment of funds. Enthusiasim is one thing, but spending bucks another. Alan, 14K for an entry level machine? I am talking more along the lines of 2-4K! Whats the bet I can build a competitive P3 500 for 3K? I hope so, or it will take me 10 years!!
OK, back to the topic at hand.... I think we all get it, its just a matter of finding an intellectual home for the knowledge. Mick has a point, this website serves that purpose well, but in the interest of a dedicated area, how about a new topic area RE "Honda CB350K Racers discussion Board"?
Dave is this something we could consider (including shifting the saga thread to this area?)?
I am willing to champion the cause, but at this stage don't have allot of time or dollars to contribute.
Mick, how about an official calling for club K members? A pit banner would be very cool?
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 07:32:43 AM
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| I got the distinct impression that this topic started off with Ben suggesting an approach to CB350 racing modelled on your Historic Superbikes stuff. I wonder about CB350s, I believe a CB400 is a much better motor to play with. In the late 60s there was an A grader who had a lot of success racing a 500cc Honda four. It was competitive against the 350cc two strokes of the time. Perhaps a Senior GP class for 500cc multis and 250cc two strokes might be a go? The Australian Senior Historic GP? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 07:35:34 AM
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| It's good to see a young guy like Ben so enthusiastic. I wonder when he'll get active and set up the Australian Senior GP website? Or perhaps a dedicated forum for Hondas? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 07:40:05 AM
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| Matcho Mick, Would you please post a link to the pic of Bens Bike? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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oldonk
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
84 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 07:48:17 AM
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Lets stick to the capacity of CB350 Hondas.
If others want bigger capacities, let them go and play with different machines.
As John and I have discussed, there is no need to spend heaps of money, it just needs ganging up.
I see Ben you mention the banner, that is a great start and if a business wants to help thats nice too but not critical. Keep the costs within budget, run a chook raffle etc to build funding for promotion. There may be a wrecker who wants the world to know they have heaps of stuff.
Lets keep rolling.
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 09:39:27 AM
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350cc it is. Not 400, 500 or even 1300.
All power to you Ben and if I can be of help please let me know. I do have time to play with at the moment.
Cheers, John  |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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matcho mick
Advanced Member
New South Wales
570 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 11:49:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by acotrel
Matcho Mick, Would you please post a link to the pic of Bens Bike?
AC,it's on page 6 of the saga 1/2 way down!,cheers |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 7:41:41 PM
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| I had a look. It's a really good bike! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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oldonk
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
84 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 7:52:27 PM
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| Can we stick to the topic of promotion rather than straying to other gossip. |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2007 : 10:27:19 AM
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Ben,
How about done for you matey..quote:
Originally posted by Ben
OK, back to the topic at hand.... I think we all get it, its just a matter of finding an intellectual home for the knowledge. Mick has a point, this website serves that purpose well, but in the interest of a dedicated area, how about a new topic area RE "Honda CB350K Racers discussion Board"?
Dave is this something we could consider (including shifting the saga thread to this area?)?
I have moved all the promotion of "Historic" motorcycling to a promotion area which includes General promotion, CB 350 and of course the You must be logged in to see this link., so please enjoy.
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Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2007 : 6:34:48 PM
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Thanks David, awesome. Thanks for facilitating such a great resource for all of us.
Cheers,
Ben |
Try Everything |
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~ROSKO~
Level 1 Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2008 : 4:12:04 PM
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Hello all! New to the forum and this is exactly what I was looking for!
I am a cb350 racer from across the seas in america. New York to be exact. We have here two racing organizations that run a 'formula' class for the cb350. WERA (www.wera.com) and the USCRA (www.race-uscra.com). I race with both groups in the FCB class.
From what I can gather from the thread you are looking to create a similar class in Australia, which would be great for me as my wife is an aussie and I'll be spending time there. Can you say two racing seasons!!!
Our cb350 classes were started as a way for new folks to get involved with vintage racing without having to break the bank, it brings in a LOT of new blood and the racing is top-notch as the machines are on equal footing. A real riders class. VERY fun. Plus the damn things are built bombproof, you just can't kill a stock 350 motor.
I will post our rules to give you all some ideas, I would love to see this class grow is Aus so I can run a similar set-up on both continents!
Here are our rules:
"Formula CB
Formula CB, a spec class for near stock Honda CB350, CL350 and CB360 Twins. The purpose of Formula CB is to provide a entry level class for new riders and a low-intensity and economical class for any rider. To meet these goals the class is intended for basically stock bikes. Anyone who disregards the spirit of rules for this class will be asked to move to LWSV. With the creation of this class, Honda CB350's will no longer eligible for Period 1 - 350GP, but can participate in Formula CB and Lightweight Supervintage. All Formula CB races may be run with the 350GP. All currently legal CB's running in 350GP will be legal for Formula CB.
Regulations:
1. Stock Engines with 5% overbore limit. No internal modifications.
2. External gearing changes, sprockets and counter-sprockets, are permitted
3. Drum brakes required. May use aftermarket brake shoe linings, including but not limited to appropriate racing compounds are permitted.
4. Stock Carburetors are required and shall not be overbored, Air boxes may be removed or modified, aftermarket air filters are permitted.
5. Exhaust system may be changed. Aftermarket exhaust systems and silencers are permitted.
6. Cam chain tensioners may be updated.
7. Electronic ignitions are allowed.
8. Clip-ons, aftermarket handlebars such as clubman, straight bars or dragbars are permitted.
9. All street equipment such as turn indicators, headlight, taillight, side-stand and kick stand shall be removed.
10. Stock frames and swingarms only. Aftermarket steering head bearings and swing-arm bushings are permitted.
11. 35mm maximum fork tube diameter
12. The motorcycle shall otherwise be 'stock'. Any modifications not specifically listed above shall not be permitted.
TECHNICAL INSPECTION:
Any or all competitors may be called to submit to a post race tech inspection to determine the legality of the machines. Displacement, rim size, cylinder head and ports, carb bore size and finish, etc. may be checked by tech officials. Protests of a technical nature must be filed as per USCRA rules." |
Born to lurk, forced to work.
www.NYCvinMoto.com |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2008 : 5:12:35 PM
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| Who checks the cam timing? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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~ROSKO~
Level 1 Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2008 : 5:58:22 PM
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a few of the machines:
..as you may gather from the pics, it's a pretty motley crew.
checking the cam timing? well, I'll take it that you are serious in some way.... without any internal modifications allowed there isn't much you can do with the cam timing. What little you CAN do is fair game. The racing with such similar, stock machines is so close that any cheating is easy to spot. It's really a cheap to run riders class. We tend to share any new set-up info with each other so in the end it always comes down to rider skill and bike maintenance. |
Edited by - ~ROSKO~ on 09 Jan 2008 5:59:20 PM |
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matcho mick
Advanced Member
New South Wales
570 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2008 : 11:29:36 PM
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| welcome onboard Rosko,thats a great insight into your CB racing world,although probably bit too late for most of us out here to go down the stock bike route,way too busy trying to keep pace with the 2smokers!,can't believe you guys race with std diaphragm type CV carby,the actual diaphragm rubbers been nil stock past 15yrs at least!,I guess SL's would be popular?,(along with air correction kits??),heres hoping you do get a chance to race out here sometime soon,even get to throw a leg over the "smoker/gravel monsta" if your'e keen enough?,cheers for now, |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 09:02:33 AM
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Yeah, thanks Rosko. I have read about this one before, sounds like a good way to gain experience in racing without having shell out dollars in bike developement.
Mick is right though, all of the cb350s down here are already heavily modified, so a class such as this would be unlikely to work.
Mick suggested to me the other day that in our circumstances, a class based on Yam RDs (period 5) may be better as a "stock class" for us. They are cheap and fast as is. CBs are already fairly expensive down here and as a entry level bike they are by far not the best choice - fun yes, but as expensive as period three bikes to develop.
Any thoughts anyone?
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~ROSKO~
Level 1 Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 4:26:42 PM
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I understand. already have a running cb350 class and they are not falling out of every shed??? Who knew? Without getting into the details there was a similar situation here years ago. Not many new racers and the ones that were racing in 350gp on other marques like ducati and aermacchi were outnumbered by the overwhelming population of hondas. It seemed wrong to classify the new riders on near stock machines into a class with traditional classic GP bikes. So the idea was to create a stock class for the new riders and to allow the modified bikes to run in GP. In actuality the bikes run together on the track, two wave start. The formula class first then the GP. So we all still dice it up.
It's funny to watch the different approaches to machine set-up in the two classes. The GP bikes chase the magic 50hp and the Formula guys fiddle with weight, chassis and brake set-up. Once a bike and rider are kicking ass in Formula it's time to move up to GP. Bob's your uncle.
or something like that.
and yes we can still get the diaphragm rubbers, NEW even! Should I stock up on 'em for my next trip? |
Born to lurk, forced to work.
www.NYCvinMoto.com |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 9:21:16 PM
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| In the early 70s RD350s were like backsides - everybody had one. They'd be a much better thing to concentrate on. I've seen races at Broadford in which period 4 and period 5 two strokes race together. The period 4 bikes don't have reed valves but can run alcohol,and the period 5 bikes can be watercooled, so the racing is very close. A set of two GP capacity classes- lightweight, and junior for historic two strokes could be a really good go. Forget about 'periods' and run the bikes in capacity classes with one 'cutoff date'!!!! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 10:22:00 PM
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At the Southern Classic, Period 4 Junior runs with Forgotten Era up to 600cc, so us CB350 punters get to do battle with Sir Al's troupe of RD400 Yams, TZs, Pantahs, and the normal gang of TR3s, usually headed by Jeff Britton and the lads. On paper, a mismatch, but due to the scratchy nature of Broadford, it's fun seeing who you can burgle ! The stock CB350 class as proposed by Rosko would have been a great idea, but as others have pointed out, it's way too late here, we are already too far along the road of the "Well, that didn't work, let's try this !" school of mods.  |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 5:22:44 PM
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| A stock RD350 would have to blow the doors off a stock CB350 any day of the week.It doesn't matter whether the bikes are stock or modified the problem is the same - matching bikes and riders in racing classes so that the competition is fair. Back when there were virtually no two strokes or 4 cylinder bikes, it was done by setting the classes by capacity and grading the riders. John Feakes mentioned an important aspect, it was the potential for setting classes for the TYPE of bikes. I agree and suggest the classes should be for single and twin cylinder four strokes, and separate for two strokes and multi cylinder four strokes - all based on capacity with the nominal capacity of two strokes doubled to allow for the massive power differences. When we start talking about 'in the era', up until the mid-sixties the main racers were the old twin and single cylinder four strokes, after that there were two strokes and four cylinder bikes as the main racers. I was racing when the good guys got their TD1C Yamahas, and made the Manxes and Triumphs redundant. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 5:37:33 PM
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| If we are to start racing 'stock' bikes, will they have to have map reading lamps on the tanks? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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~ROSKO~
Level 1 Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 12:59:19 AM
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wow. A lot to respond to! First off let me say I am by no means an expert on this stuff, just trying to relay what works for us here. In the process I hope to figure out what I can bring or build to run in Aus.
Acotrel, YES we do have the very same stock class for RD350's (Formula RD). A stock class should use a bike readily available and relatively cheap. Similar rules but a bit more specific. CAN use chambers, lighten chassis, upgrade suspension and controls and use y-boot intakes etc. CANNOT internally modify engine, port/ flow, change wheels, chain size, brace frame etc. Meant to be a similar gateway class for newbies. Rules are up on the site I linked before.
Classes in Aus? GD66, So you guys just run in one huge 'era' based bunch with no regard to displacement or even a performance index? While it sounds fun I'm sure it can be frustrating. We have the normal displacement based classes, the special classes (like the formula classes) and mixed performance index based classes. All have cutoff dates. A mixed class example is lightweight which is bikes built up to 1972(?) 2 stroke up to 200cc and four stroke up to 500cc. It is really fun to run a cb350 against a mt125r and a sr500 in the same class! But I wouldn't want to do it all the time. On an regular race day I'll run in the CB class, LIGHTWEIGHT and bump up to 500GP just for kicks. Any more than that would be too much. You may want to browse the USCRA rules to see the class structure. The other group we run with, WERA is all displacement based with the smallest being 350!
but back to the topic Oldonk started... "how to promote a sub-class with rules so you don't have the big $$ engines" and such. The stock class I refer to was started after a large group of folks were already running modified 350's, to bring in the new riders they decided on a stock class which would run with the 350gp class. Every year the club holds a 'vintage track day and racing school' and promotes it at the big international MC shows over our winter. The day has classroom and track time for the noobies and shakedown time for the seasoned riders to test their machinery. The new ones can even run a streetbike if they prep it right. At the last one I'd say we had 40 new riders.
ALL OF THEM STARTED RACING.
letting them run the street bikes was a tactical decision, hoping that once they tried it they'd be hooked. It works.
So if you could somehow 'burgle' a booth at say, the Sydney MC show and have a 'vintage MC road racing' booth to promote the sport, I'm sure you would find a lot of folks have these bikes in their sheds and never knew they could race 'em.
Well, what started me on this path was hoping I could figure out... what group or club would I run with if I lived in Sydney? and based on that, to decide what machine.
Acotrel,
yes, the 'stockies' come with reading lamps, cupholders AND ashtrays. All must be in good working order and safety wired as per regulations.
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Born to lurk, forced to work.
www.NYCvinMoto.com |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 11:07:42 AM
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Rosko, we are not that primitive! We run in periods, within each is a separation of capacity for classes. Works very well.
For the real info, I advise you read the General Competition Rules, this will give you the lowdown on what you really need to acheive should you wish to run a bike here.
Download the historic road racing section from here:
You must be logged in to see this link.
Cheers, Ben. |
Try Everything |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 06:03:08 AM
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| Rosko, I found you post very interesting. In Australia there are CHAMPIONSHIP capacity classes, but the reality is that there are often too few entries to run them at normal meetings. What you find is that often all capacity classes in a 'period' run in the same races. The result is that some bikes have been developed to have engine capacities which were never achieved 'in the era'. What you then find is the races have little appeal to spectators or competitors. Who wants races where the leaders lap the tailenders after one lap? It's not about 'just come along and have fun'. We pay entry fees to RACE! I don't believe we will ever have televised historic motorcycle racing in OZ. You simply cannot promote something which is effectively a repeated parade. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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matcho mick
Advanced Member
New South Wales
570 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 10:29:32 PM
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well phuck me!!,all these years i've been paying hard earned $$$$ to have the best fun (legally),i have actually been racing??,i'm confused,(hmmm maybe i can get my PI entry fee refunded),
ps what do you mean "we" whiteman |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 12:53:31 AM
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| Mick, I'd say just one thing - most of historic racing in the past 24 years wasn't like anything which happened in history. Most of the blokes racing in historic events these days were never involved back then and wouldn't know. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 8:28:42 PM
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Lindsay Urquhart, Robbie Phillis, Barry Ditchburn, Rob Hinton, John Maher, Richard Scott, Hugh Anderson, Ginger Molloy and a few others might tend to disagree with yet another of your unsubstantiated generalisations..... |
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~ROSKO~
Level 1 Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 12:45:13 AM
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Ben, Thanks for the info, I get it now. Seems vintage racing suffers from poor turnout everywhere. I understand why you would run 'era' bikes together in theory but it doesn't make much sense for the spectator. We have a pretty small club and can muster running separate classes for everything, a lot of times races will be bunched together in two wave starts but at least the displacements are similar. While we do run normal FIM championship classes we also added the stock (CB & RD) classes, classic and modern 50cc GP, an unlimited year singles class, a american twins class for the harley 883, sidecars (of course) and there is talk of doing either an ex500 or modern Triumph class... all this to bring in more riders. It works and a lot of these 'new' riders end up getting a classic bike also to run.
So what kind of numbers are we looking at? How many people are running in the vintage classes? How about in the 350 class? What is the most populated vintage class? Just to get an idea of the situation.
On the other subject of 'racing'....
Acotrel, I'll go out on a limb here and say most of us are racing. NOT re-enacting. If you want to talk about modern technology leaking into vintage bikes displacement isn't the thing to look at. They could overbore to death back when. What they did NOT have were modern compound tires and electronic ignition. Those are the two biggest modern advantages we use, and I'm happy to use it! What about helmets?! More of us make it home to our families because of these three things than we give credit to. I think there has to be a balance. It is 2008 after all. We tend to say the bikes and riders should be 'in the spirit' of the era. We are lucky enough to have some riders from 'the era' in our club and let me say that they are more often than not the ones bending the rules!!
But I digress, my intention was to share our model for promoting the cb350 and classic racing. I will look into the rules and classes and try to figure out where I fit. Anyone know where I would find a 2008 racing schedule?
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Born to lurk, forced to work.
www.NYCvinMoto.com |
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