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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jul 2009 : 10:15:24 AM
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Alan Cotterell suggested that we should separate 2 strokes from 4 strokes and call the 4 strokes TT and the 2 strokes GP.
I think this idea has a lot of merit.
Historically the early days of 125 racing were the domain of 4 strokes and it was only Walter Kaaden's brilliance that got the 2 strokes to realise their potential.
The 2 strokes then went on to dominate racing until killed off by the politicians.
The year of manufacture of a bike is not the be all and end all of which part of history a bike belongs in. The technology is of far greater importance than the year of manufacture.
If we explore Alan's suggestion we could end up with racing by type rather than by year.
Single and twin cylinder 4 strokes would effectively be the period 3 race bikes and the 2 strokes would effectively become the P4 and P5 bikes, provided that the bikes were of period technology.
This would put them where they belong in history and could encourage more 4 stroke participation in the 125 class.
What are your thoughts?
Cheers, John
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2009 : 12:59:30 PM
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I agree this is an interesting proposal.
I guess if we get them all into the one race that would be a start. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2009 : 2:16:57 PM
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I think that what we need to get the idea started would be a trophy for the TT class.
In an all in together situation it is extremely unlikely that a 4 stroke would ever beat the 2 strokes so we would need to establish separation just as is now done by periods.
I will explore the possibilities ($$$) of coming up with a trophy.
How about The H.M.R.A.V. 125cc Tourist Trophy?
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2009 : 7:35:10 PM
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Lets wait for feedback.
Experience has shown me that most people will not make a comment, even when they think it is a good idea.
So if we dont get comments I reckon we should no nothing, otherwise we get no idea whether people think it is a direction to go. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2009 : 09:49:13 AM
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I believe in leadership.
I am prepared to lead even if I walk alone.
At least that gives people the option to follow if they so wish.
Doing nothing will get us nowhere.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
Edited by - john feakes on 13 Jul 2009 10:21:14 AM |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2009 : 3:41:26 PM
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I have just been checking the world championship winners. From its inception in 1949 through to 1962 the 125cc class was all 4 stroke.
In 1963 Suzuki won, in 1964 Honda, 1965 Suzuki and 1966 Honda.........this was the last time a 4 stroke won. This really suggests to me that 4 stroke 125s represent period 3 only, regardless of when a bike appeared in a showroom.
Anyone care to comment?
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Historic
Level 2 Member
New South Wales
46 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2009 : 5:59:06 PM
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Not really sure what you want to achieve. Two and four strokes have raced together in all but the most recent eras. So with all due respect;
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
While not all World Championship winning machines or 125s the blue smokers have been around longer than common sense.
Veteran (Period 1)
1910 Scott 2stroke is the only one that readily comes to mind, but there were other 2 stokes racing in the period.
And other made lots of 4 strokes
So no need to split them in Period 1
Prewar (Period 2)
1940 Lewis 2stroke,
Ariel had a few successful 2 strokes
and others made lots of 4 strokes
So no need to split them in Period 2
Classic (Period 3)
DKW 125 2stroke
BSA Bantam 2stoke
1954 Yamaha YA1 2 stroke
1956 Suzuki 2 stroke
1950 Australian TT 125cc race was won by Maurie Quincey on a BSA Bantam, from Keith Hambrook BSA Bantam, and Ray Owen riding a CZ
and again other made lots of 4 strokes
So no need to split them in period 3
Post Classic (Period 4)
There isn’t enough paper to list them! Both 2 and 4 stroke, but by this time the 2s were dominant but not exclusive.
So I can’t see why you want to split them here.
Our History is pretty good no real need to rewrite it. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2009 : 08:45:45 AM
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I too have been around for a long time.
What I am trying to achieve is to get more 4 stroke 125s on the grids.
In the early days the 2 strokes were piston ported and did not produce serious power.
Walter Kaaden developed the expansion chamber type of exhaust and, coupled with a rotary valve to give assymetric port timing, the 2 stroke was on its way.
I am only concerned here with 125cc machines
and only the period from the end of WW2.
This is the period when the racing scene changed from being 4 stroke dominated to being 2 stroke exclusive.
I am not seeking to rewrite history, I am merely looking at it from a different angle.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2009 : 2:36:55 PM
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How about Group A. All 4 strokes and all piston port 2 strokes. Drum brakes only and no expansion chambers.
Minimum 18" spoked wheels. Machines of the type raced prior to 1963
Group B. Piston port and rotary valve 2 strokes.
Expansion chambers allowed. Drum brakes. 18" spoked wheels.
Machines of the type raced prior to 1972
Group C. As Group 2 but allowing 17" spoked or cast wheels of period pattern, disc brakes and slick tyres.
Machines of the type raced prior to 1980.
Tubular steel frames, no monoshock rear ends.
All bikes to be visually compatible with the era represented
This, hopefully, would go some way to recreating history without "date of manufacture" being the only yardstick used to determine a bike's place in history and therefore on the track.
Don't jump on my head, give it some thought and then jump on my head. Remember this is 125s only so I don't want anyone screaming about his 1937 Scott being left out.
John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
Edited by - john feakes on 05 Aug 2009 2:47:05 PM |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2009 : 7:24:58 PM
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| What class does a Bantum with all Yamaha internals get to run in? Period 3? The original racers had a long conrod and 3 speed box, piston port and weak bearings, and a mega phone exhaust. Is that wot you're talking about? Or are we cataring for thinly disguised RS125s? In motoGP the two strokes are 66% of the fourstroke capacity, that's reasonable for any race where smokers and oilies run together |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2009 : 1:35:59 PM
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Can someone please tell me why date of manufacture became the sole yardstick for judging a bike's place in history?
It seems a bit strange when one can order a 1963 bike to be made in 2009.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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