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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jan 2010 : 09:29:04 AM
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Following some incidents at PI 2010 where 2 stroke solos bogged down at the line and on one occasion resulted in a big prang, the Clerk of Course has suggestted to improve safety they should put any two stroke machine at the back of the grid, be it a solo or a sidecar.
The purpose being to prevent 4 strokes slamming into them.
I offerred a counter view which Max Hooper suggestted, that the two strokes be lined up on one side of the grid rather than spread around.
What are your thoughts?
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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team400
Level 1 Member
New South Wales
19 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2010 : 1:55:47 PM
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| Maybe we shouldn't do the knee jerk reaction here.With out being rude maybe we should look at skill levels.(Were they not tail enders that caused the problem). |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2010 : 7:05:34 PM
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Even if it wasn't, Alan, the reality is that this happens so seldom as to be inconsequential. In mixed fields, it's the only opportunity for a four-stroke to gain any form of advantage at the start of a race, where the two-strokes are difficult (but NOT impossible) to get off the line.
That clerk of course should do a bit more research into the history and low incident rate of mixed-grid racing (i.e. 1939 to 1999). When he does, he'll find there's no case to answer.
Just another unnecessary knee-jerk reaction....like the crankcase end covers... |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2010 : 8:28:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by GD66
Just another unnecessary knee-jerk reaction....like the crankcase end covers...
Talking of which...
..I fell off my mate 's RD on Sat AM when the throttle jammed open. He read the new "end cover rule" to mean he had to have one on his clutch cover. It spat me off at Honda, dug the new cover into the tarmac, ripping out the screw securing the cover spewing oil all over the run off road. Great new rule! |
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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vinton
Level 2 Member
Western Australia
42 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2010 : 10:58:34 PM
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| racing is a risk to one self and ones bike end of story .change all the rules you want the above will still apply |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2010 : 6:12:58 PM
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| I've been going to PI since about 1958. I've seen only one pile-up on the grid at the start of a race. The bikes ended up in a heap about 3 deep, from a grid that was huge. Separating two strokes completely from four strokes in their own capacity classes is a good idea. However I wouldn't think the occurrence of start grid pile-ups does much for the case for change |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2010 : 9:40:53 PM
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| From the advise given me the pile up was caused by front runners. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2010 : 09:31:27 AM
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| takes two to tango! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2010 : 6:20:32 PM
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This was no Tango, the bike in front slowed and the ones behind hit hit and others.
Can you keep the comments relevant I have too many diversions to read otherwise!!! |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2010 : 5:51:13 PM
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| Do you blame the guy with the two stroke which bogged down, or the guy on the fourstroke who had brain fade and couldn't ride around him? As I said 'IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO!' The last time I rode at an HMRAV meeting at Winton, the bike in front of me completely dropped it's guts on the track, during the start of a race. I rode around it - it's not rocket science. If there is somebody beside you, you have to push them out wide. |
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Geoffpgrant
Level 3 Member
South Australia
204 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2010 : 2:42:30 PM
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There seems to be two threads on this issue and I posted the following reply in the Sidecar thread so I thought I would copy it in here as well for those who don't visit the sidecar forums.
Yes, I have sat back and watched this thread whilst biting my tongue... But I just had to weigh in didn't I. I happen to have developed my two stroke to get off the line well and my experience in recent years is that the four strokes get in my way so I propose that the four strokes be made to stay line astern on one side of the track until turn one so that they don't get in my way!!! OK, obviously tongue in cheek but really, let's not lump all together because of one incident. In this forum over the years there has been discussions about many aspects of bikes and how they handle, or start, or stop, but we don't suggest that we lump all with that particular characteristic together and make them race on their own, do we. The race track would be a boring place if we did. Let's face it, at least one of the attractions of classic racing for spectators is the variety of machines available for them to peruse. For me the same thing is a big attraction. So in conclusion, let's forget the kneejerk reactions to odd incidents and get on with having fun.
Geoff
Sidecar #30 |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2010 : 3:26:45 PM
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One thread is for solos and the other thread is for Solos, seeing the effects of the concept would have different effects.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2010 : 7:52:56 PM
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It's a load of cobblers anyway, the problem stemmed from Craig Ditchburn having trouble getting off the line cleanly NOT because of fouling up or flooding, but because he had a mechanical failure of his rear hub cush drive, which could have happened to either a two-stroke or a four-stroke at any stage.
Quite why the clerk of the course feels he needs to get involved and start offering his opinion on the makeup of the grid completely eludes me... |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 11:00:03 AM
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| As a senior official teh Clerk of course is obliged to investigate all matters. He wanted to see if people thought there was an issue I am grateful for the opportunity to be told of the thoughts before action ws taken. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 09 Feb 2010 11:06:24 AM |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 7:20:15 PM
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| I would have thought the duty of the Clerk of Course would have been to run the meeting as quickly and safely as possible, John. Surely investigations into causes of accidents should be instigated by the Steward. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 08:16:30 AM
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| Raises the question about the way MA/MV handle improvements to race safety. The MA safety policy requires incidents to be reported, yet doesn't require 'continual improvement' in safety. It's reasonable to expect that the Stewards report would provoke action, however I suspect it's not an automatic process. I'd question whether MA or MV actually have a person specifically charged with managing this area. I also question whether track licencing activities are the responsibility of one administrative area. I would have thought that incidents causing injury would affect the insurance premium paid to the MA insurer by promoters. |
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transtasman racer
Level 1 Member
New Zealand
3 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 9:17:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by glen20
Do you blame the guy with the two stroke which bogged down, or the guy on the fourstroke who had brain fade and couldn't ride around him? As I said 'IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO!' The last time I rode at an HMRAV meeting at Winton, the bike in front of me completely dropped it's guts on the track, during the start of a race. I rode around it - it's not rocket science. If there is somebody beside you, you have to push them out wide.
Glen (I note it gave me Glen20 as quoting, but is in Alan's original post)
That's a very punchy statement to make when I doubt that:
1) you have all the facts of the incident,
2) you were not viewing the accident from any of the riders seats,
3) or were viewing from a prime point on the circuit or
4) you have not seen the circuit video footage.
Frankly your coment smacks of a the typical ilinformed "Monday Morning Quarterback" attitude. Pointless at best and dangerous at the worst.
I'm no expert in the incident but I can say the following points:
1) I watched the accident from the top southern corner of the pit building and subsequently was invited to view the circuit video footage by the organisers. I'm very aware that eye witness recollections can be unreliable so I was interested in seeing the video footage and how it compared against my own memory. I was reasonably close to the money on what I could recall. What was interesting was everything else that I didn't see that was caught on video. This was a big accident with bikes all over the place as a result of Craig's bike loosing drive, noting that the point of impact was well off the line - near or after the bridge, so the speeds at that point of riders coming through was well up.
2) I had 3 of the riders involved parked in the same garage.
3) 2 of I know very well. Rod Price and Phil Davenport. Both are exceptionally good racers with tens thousands of miles of track time each. Rod was an unfortunate bystander in the whole accident whereby a burning TZ750 was magnetically attracted to his front wheel. He didn't have a hope as the bike came from his left sliding on the ground and would have been hidden by any number of bikes. Noting that Rod was hauling in 3rd gear on his TZ350 just prior to impact (which should give you some idea of distance travelled, noting that 2nd at PI is 130km/h easily). I'm very thankful that a good mate was not hurt worse than he was.
Phil has ridden bikes that I have prepared for the last 3 years and apart from being a previous winner of the Classic Race of the Year in the UK a few years back, is a very classy rider, if not the most of any I have worked with. In this instance he was not riding a bike I was supplying (though he was riding other bikes at the meeting I was looking after). Phil though is easily one of the best riders I know personally from working hands on with. I was also very thankful when we determined that Phil was essentially unhurt.
Granted Phil running into the back of Craig Ditchburn's bike started the chain reaction, but after talking to Phil and viewing the video footage, I'm surprised that it was not far worse. Phil tells me that he got a very good launch. He was 3 rows back from Ditch's bike. The rows are widely seprated at PI and again Phil was Row 7 and Ditch was row 4 - quite a drag race to the point of impact and probably a doz bikes on the circuit between them - ie plenty to have to keep an eye on, also, plenty to hide a slowing bike which has had drive, got rolling well and then is coasting. The others would have been at similar speed to start with and then as Ditch lost drive and started to decelarate, the rate of closure would have increased exponentially as Phil was accelerating, all while Phil was probably unsighted of him (and Ditch had been costing a while by then I 'm guessing), until late in the piece from the other bikes.
A 930cc Trident is not the fastest thing out, but will have great torque to accelerate off the line and as Phil said, he got a great launch. At a closing speed of say 60 miles an that is 25-30 m/s approx , but the rate of closure could have been greater and would have been increasing. Even if Phil had 30 metres of of clear site on Ditch (unlikely) and a 1/2 sec reaction time only gives him 12-15 metres (and most likley less as the closing speed would have been increasing) to get the Trident turned enough to get around him.
If you had been there, you would have seen the damage to Phil's bike was on the right side as he made an agressive left turn to try and avoid Ditch. So agressive that I'm still astounded that he stayed on the bike AND didn't subsequently hit the wall on the left of the extended pit lane. As it was, the impact whilst relatively glancing in the big scheme of things was still severe with muscle strain to Phil's shoulders and neck and impact damage to Phil's leg, along with significant impact damage to the right hand side of the bike. with punctured engine cases, oil cooler, broken brake lines, jammed steering etc.
4) I've seen the back of Ditch's bike and the cause of lack of drive
as I had to go and collect the remains of Rod's 350 and I have more than a passing interest in TZ750's, so I have an understanding of what caused it.
Personally I find it offensive that you imply that one of the UK's best and most experienced classic racers, literally rode into the back of Ditch's bike without trying to avoid him, especially given the facts disprove this. Saying it takes "two to tango" is callous and essentially nugatory in the extreme.
I won't comment on the separation of starting grids, suffice to say, the same problem would and could have happened on a 4 stroke.
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Edited by - transtasman racer on 18 Feb 2010 4:47:55 PM |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 9:38:55 PM
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Thanks Transtasman.
GD the reason the Clerk of course spoke with me is that we all act together via managemnt committees. The c of C often acts as Stewart and since I reckon I am a hands on secretary we often float ideas and discuss things long before the reports may be written.
Is it good, I think so.
Is it right, I dont know.
Is it best for racing, I think so.
Obviously there are some isues that are dealt with through the normal cahannels, but we think we can get feedback and opinins pretty quickly through the contacts I use.
In the past a common complaint was that nobody was asked anything and things just happenned, we have tried to do things differently so that people could see things happening.
Please remember this when commenting. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 21 Feb 2010 2:13:43 PM |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 8:17:37 PM
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Fair call John, although I struggle to agree that it can be broadly labelled "Good For Racing"" if Brendan is assuming that the incident was caused by a two-stroke loading up and causing the crash, therefore for safety reasons all two-strokes should be on the back of the grid, when in fact the incident was triggered by a cush drive failure.
I know your heart is in the right place, but what if the cush drive failure had not come to light so quickly, and a well-meaning posse had initiated the Grid Shuffle policy ? It's always best to hear all sides before springing into action.
Having said that, it is at least a positive move that concern for the cause of the crash has been indicated from the tower. This shows that the agenda is for the safety of all, a good move.
Regards GD |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 2:15:50 PM
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| Thanks |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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