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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
 Posted - 30 May 2011 : 09:31:50 AM
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Does anyone have any factual info/knowledge of the use of communicators between rider/passenger on sidecars, i.e. are they permitted? The MMS is silent on them , except for a ban on electronic communications between rider and pits in solo's. Cheers, Tony.
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 12:54:57 PM
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I used to rely on banging his shoulder with my fist, but that was 55 years ago.
There certainly doesn't seem to be any specific ban on such things.
The only area I can think of that may cause a problem is with the helmet being able to accommodate an ear piece and a microphone.
Are suitable helmets available and do they still carry the required label? |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
Edited by - john feakes on 30 May 2011 12:57:18 PM |
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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2011 : 1:05:14 PM
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Thanks John, trouble is he hits back!! I've checked with Standards Australia on the helmet matter, and they have no concerns with currently certified helmets having the ear piece/microphone being used, as long as it does not affect the integrity of the helmet, i.e. drill holes in it, etc. Several of the brand helmets actually have a cut-away in the lining to allow for an ear piece to sit snugly. Additionally, the systems available, both blue tooth and wired, are made of soft material that is not likely to cause injury in a prang.
Do local Supp Reg's have any priority over the MMS requirements, i.e. can they disallow use when it is silent in the MMS?
I really can't see it being all that different from Helmet camera use, on both helmets and bikes, which are currently allowed.
Cheers, Tony. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 07:26:42 AM
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| I thought I saw somewhere where MA prohibited the use of onboard cameras? Like a lot of things, it's usually better to do what you want to do, and argue afterwards. If you ask permission, someone has to make a decision, and it's always easier to say 'NO'! The only way you'd get picked up on your communication equipment, would be if somebody lodged a protest. Perhaps you should look at incorporating a radio transmitter and include communication with your pit crew? - All part of 'historic racing'? |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 08:49:38 AM
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Is this for the "come and try" day so that you can chat up the girls you get in the chair?
Just do it. Who, apart from you two, is going to know? |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Historic
Level 2 Member
New South Wales
46 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 09:14:07 AM
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I wasn't going to bother replying until my old mate suggested cheating. So, just to back to the original question Rule 12.7.0.1 refers to radio communication and it says no radio communication with the rider.
Before the bush lawyers get involved...previous rulings have decided that the that includes the passenger. There is also (somewhere) that radio communication as a definition includes telephones or any other devices like that. So no you can't.
On the general topic I'd have to ask why you'd what to and how you'd manage it. Open mike ...lots of heavy breathing and swearing, push to talk...I'm not letting go of what I'm supposed to be doing for a chat.
May I suggest you do what every team has done since year dot till today, work out a few key signals and get on with it.
As for Al's comment ... cheat until you're caught...well I'll file that with most of his other insightful comments straight into the porcelain filing cabinet with the push button sorting.
Historic |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 11:42:13 AM
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Excuse my ignorance on the topic of sidecars but what on earth would a rider and passenger need to discuss anyway??
I'm amazed how many in historic racing (and racing in general) that I've come across think cheating is acceptable and are happy to do so. There seems to be an entrenched culture that the rules are, if not there to be broken, then there to be stretched as far as possible and interepreted to suit a desired position. Wait 'til P6 is running consistently and see all the 750's and 1000's that are oops, slightly oversize. Not to mention 250 proddies that will not be exactly proddie. |
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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 4:31:51 PM
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| Oi! before you lot head off on another tangent, i.e. Cheating, I have no intention of cheating at all!! The query was about there being any rule to prevent the use of electronic communicators. The "only" mention in the MMS is for solo's comunicating with pits - not allowed. There is nothing else that I can find in the MMS. It appears, like cameras, that it is a suck it and see approach, so I will try that. It will in no way unreasonably enhance our chances, our skill level, or lack of it, and the new beast will determine that. As for communicating with my passenger, it would be handy to know how fast someone is coming up on us as well as from which side. I also enjoy abusing him on a regular basis! I have afair idea of where we will go from here. Thanks to all for your replies. Cheers, Tony. |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 4:45:11 PM
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Tony, for the record I was picking up on historic's reference to Conkers "Like a lot of things, it's usually better to do what you want to do, and argue afterwards" comment.
Good point about checking where competitors are, hadn't thought of that one! (could you not just have some wee mirrors?) |
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Historic
Level 2 Member
New South Wales
46 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 4:49:35 PM
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Tony,
Just to be clear. I wasn't saying you were cheating or intending to do so, that comment was for conker.
Please be aware that the rule I quoted is not for solos it is for everyone. It is in the general rules chapter and doesn't exclude sidecar riders.
There is no grey area here. Radio (and everything else beside a thump) comunication is not allowed.
Historic |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 7:30:29 PM
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| Correct. |
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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2011 : 10:23:00 PM
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| Thanks Gents, appreciate the clarification, and also the clarity around the rule and where it is. I need to read a little more thoroughly. Jason, mirrors would be handy, but I know for a fact that we are not allowed to use them in P4. Perhaps I should go faster and then not worry about being passed? The new Mike Panayi built motor might just do the trick!Thumping the passenger (my brother) would be handy, and satsifying at times, but he has the advantage of being able hit back!!Thanks to all yet again, I won't be using the communicator at all. Cheers, Tony. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 09:23:25 AM
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Well, all this raises some interesting points.
12.7.0.1 Radio communications with riders is not allowed, and will be classed as outside assistance, except for Enduro.
1/. Are the two on a sidecar both "riders"?
I would say that technically they are.
2/. Is an intercom system a "radio" or merely a voice amplification system?
I would argue that a "radio" needs a transmitter and an independent receiver.
I would also argue that the purpose of the rule is to stop communication between a rider and his pit crew, not between a rider and his passenger.
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
Edited by - john feakes on 01 Jun 2011 09:41:32 AM |
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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 12:40:10 PM
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| I'll contact MA and get their opinion/ruling, and post back here when I have it. Cheers, Tony. |
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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 12:56:30 PM
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| Ross Martin at MA has provided the following. "The rules say no communicating with the rider (via communicators), as the passenger would be communicating with the rider, the communicators are not allowed". For me anyway, that is the end of the story. I will resort to violence to get my passengers attention (LOL)! Cheers, Tony. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 1:01:35 PM
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I know you think you heard what you thought I said but I am not sure that you realise that what you think I said was not what I meant to say.
With all due respect to M.A. the only people qualified to give a ruling on what they meant are those who introduced the rule.
Any other opinion is just that. An opinion. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 1:24:38 PM
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I know you think you heard what you thought I said but I am not sure that you realise that what you think I said was not what I meant to say.
With all due respect to M.A. the only people qualified to give a ruling on what they meant are those who introduced the rule.
Any other opinion is just that. An opinion. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 5:16:09 PM
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| If you want to use a communicator, why don't you just paint it black? |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 5:32:23 PM
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@Historic 'I wasn't going to bother replying until my old mate suggested cheating'
Did I? I think you're delusional.
Didn't the words 'all part of historic racing ?' mean anything to you? Are you really so dim? |
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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 5:49:00 PM
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| Oi Conker, or whatever your nom de plum is this week, let it go. The discussion is over and no-one cares what you think! |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 6:21:16 PM
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In fairness to Conker, his tongue in cheek comments were taken completely out of context and turned into something that he didn't say.
Sadly I would expect nothing else from one who hides his identity.
Tony, you give up too easily.
Communication with a rider is not mentioned, it is RADIO communication that is.
If it was communication, pit boards would also be banned! |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 6:49:07 PM
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According to the You must be logged in to see this link. from MA, there is nothing about Communicators/Radio's in it for Historic Road Racing, and if it isn't in there, then it must be legal.
We all know that conker (aka: Alan C and a heap of other names) so he is no longer hiding his identity.. |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 07:42:51 AM
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| David, there might be nothing about it in 'the rules', but perhaps we need a statement of intent related to historic racing? There seems to be a complete disregard for the need for AUTHENTICITY. I spend half my life stripping japanese parts from my British bike, I actually try to get it looking genuine! Three years ago I was at Broadford and saw a P4 two stroke with the full set of go-kart digital electronics on the handle bars, thermocouples in the exhausts, digital tacho - the works! The bike had been through scrutineering and accepted for the meeting, it was probably even log-booked. The thing was obviously a cheater, but the cheating had been CONDONED! I suggest historic racers should GET REAL, and at least make an attempt at getting their bikes authentic. 'The rules' are BULLSH1T! |
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peen0_0
Level 3 Member
Victoria
224 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 08:03:58 AM
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No, I haven't given up John, I'm just no longer interested in the rantings of another poster here. His insinuation that Historic racers are cheaters is extremely offensive to me, and I dispute that his comments or intent have been taken out of context. He leads with his chin when making generalised statements about all of us based on one or two examples that suit his need, oh, and where is his evidence?
I agree that the rules "do not" state that the communicators are illegal to us, i.e. Historic sidecars in this case, so I will use this to my advantage. By saying that "this is the end of the story" I am not saying what you think I suspect? (Hmmmwahahaha). Remember "suck it and see"?. Cheers, Tony. |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
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conker
Really - acotrel - Now banned
Victoria
361 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 08:17:55 AM
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| Peeno, I suggest you should do what your conscience dictates! |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 09:37:05 AM
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David, it wasn't Conker/A.C.I was referring to regarding hidden identity.
It was the other bloke who condescendingly looks down from his lofty pulpit and tells the plebs what they can and can't do.
I would like to know who he is and what he bases his authoritarian attitude on. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 10:18:33 AM
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How's the bike coming along Alan?
Digital tachs etc are within the rules. You've taken a big leap to suggest that bike wasn't compliant on that basis alone. The only thing it certainly doesn't comply with is your sense of what historic racing should be. If historic racing ran along the lines you implore there would be hardly any bikes out there - pls grasp that notion, and get your bike out on a track, even if you give it to some youngster to ride, and then, only then, can you even begin to command some practical authority on these matters. The reason your bike probably had so much Jap stuff on it was because anything made in Britain after about 1968 was dubious at best. I had a car built by British Leyland in case you're wondering where that comment comes from. And John, I don't think Alan's comments were tongue-in-cheek, unless his sarcasm is so dry-as-dust as to be completely missed in written form. I interpreted what he said to endorse cheating - "Like a lot of things, it's usually better to do what you want to do, and argue afterwards. If you ask permission, someone has to make a decision, and it's always easier to say 'NO'!" That's pretty clear to me. |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 10:33:09 AM
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A couple of other points:
Alan, how familiar are you with the Historic chapter of MoMs?? If you don't like it you are at liberty to send MA Rule Change Submissions at the very least. Taking the digital tach as an example, this is simply the use of contemporary technologies, the likes of which would have happened in the era anyway, take any item as example - tyres, oils, whatever - your British bike with Jap bits is probably a case in point - adaptation and improvement are here and now and always.
At the very least I think you owe it to these Forum members who have to combat your missives to draft up a comprehensive set of alternative regs for debate. Will you do that?
On a last note, whilst you drive people mad, would we have it any other way?? Strangely therefore I welcome your presence on the forum. I called you a corrosive embuggerance on another forum and while I don't resile from that, I wouldn't want you to stop being so either, so keep up the good work!
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Historic
Level 2 Member
New South Wales
46 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 1:58:04 PM
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John I checked the rule book and you don't get to know.
Historic |
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GD66
Senior Member
Western Australia
390 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 8:03:34 PM
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David : Communications that don't exist in the Historic GCRs are covered as Historic has pointed out in the All Disciplines regs, namely rule 12.7.0.1 . Just because it doesn't appear in Chapter 16 doesn't mean you can ignore it. Several historic racers would be well advised to read these portions of the MoMS/GCRs that exist outside Chapter 16...
I might add that the wording of this rule is somewhat ambiguous : in my opinion, this is not accidental, but deliberate, with the intention of covering a variety of possibilities or permutations... |
Edited by - GD66 on 02 Jun 2011 8:07:01 PM |
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Communicators
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