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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 6:19:02 PM
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| customer feedback is important. Without it we are just working on supposition. It's obvious there are important issues which are affecting our racing, and we must bring them to the surface. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 8:24:22 PM
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100 variations of the same thing is a waste of time. Obviously nobody is interested in helping the secretary of the only club actively promoting historics with any ideas. So how the hell can you expect us to do better when you cant even put pen to paper.
It could be said You are all hopeless as far as I am concerned, just lazy hipocrital ponces who love to bag the bejesus about anybody who tries to help but cannot be bothered to offer any ideas to improve things.
You dont want to put an idea out there in the mwarket in case somebody says it is not good.
Dont any of you dare to complain nobody listens or seeks information to improve things, I will remind all of you that you reneged out of the opportunily to contribute.
As an old friend says years ago, Some Motorcycle racers are a bunch of whingers who are looking for an excuse to not race.
So dont complain when we make another mistake!!!
Dont get on the phones and complain that John as a load mouth prick who does not listen, I will remind you you did nothing when an opportunity arrives. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 10 Aug 2009 8:33:45 PM |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2009 : 09:19:44 AM
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| Jon, It appears that many on this forum believe that cost is a factor which keeps people from racing. How much cheaper cound HMRAV make entry fees ,if we gave electronic timing the flick. I suggest we should do a cost/benefit analysis on every aspect of our racing. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2009 : 09:47:51 AM
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John, don't give up.
People who can't afford to race are not likely to call you and tell you.
They have already dismissed the idea and taken up another hobby.
We need to concentrate on those who have become lost to the sport, those who have bikes but don't bring them out anymore.
Like it or not we are all getting older and some may even be growing up.
I think we should offer a regularity event to try to entice these old snoozers to come out for a ride.
5 laps on Sunday, no entry fee, just the cost of a one event rec. licence.
We tried a similar thing a couple of years ago at the Southern Classic and it brought some out of the woodwork.
Unfortunately it was not handled very well and led to some differences of opinion.
I think it is worth trying again if we make sure we get it right.
I am sure there are many who would like to come and have a ride, maybe a few of them would then take the next step and enter a race. Even if none of them do, it would be nice to let them know that they are not forgotten.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2009 : 09:51:54 AM
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| Jon, I really appeciated the way you put the proposed program for the Southern Classic on this forum. That really helps! I'll give you some 'customer feedback' - if I bring one bike to your meeting, for my $180 entry, single event licence and my fuel costs, I want at least 4 rides with one of them being really competitive. This could be achieved by adjusting the format of the races, running capacity classes which overlap and getting full grids so the cost of track hire is better amortised. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2009 : 09:58:49 AM
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| John Feaskes, the regularity idea is a good one. I know one old fart who came to the bonanza and had a good time. A regularity would bring him back, the reality is he's age 71, and scared of breaking his skinny body. Regularities might sound like something for wooses, but regular times can really only be achieved at racing speeds. The attraction is that the idiots on huge capacity bikes won't usually bother with a regularity, so it should be safe. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2009 : 10:47:34 AM
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Glen, I, too, am a backward 17 year old.
I think that the turn out at Little River and then at the bonanza showed that they are out there.
If we offer something they like and can afford they will support it.
Maybe we should try something different.
I would like to see a one day meeting as a joint venture between M.V. and H.M.R.A.V.
Racing by capacity as suggested elsewhere on this forum, periods 2 and 3 race together, periods 4 and 5 race together. Each class would get 2 races in the day.
M.V.'s involvement would be to make the track available free of charge but be able to charge spectator admission, H.M.R.A.V. to organise the meeting, entry fee to be set to cover costs only. No lap timing, just a camera on the finish line to settle disputes.
The whole meeting to be promoted as a low key fun event. No trophies, just a printed certificate as an award.
What do you think?
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2009 : 3:50:54 PM
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| John, I agree there is a need for a rethink about the bigger meetings . The Austin 7 meeting or something like it would be better held at Easter with a oneday bike meet on the Monday at the same circuit. Prefer Calder as venue. It's close to Melb. and can handle a crowd. What's missing is the euivalent to Bathurst Easter. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2009 : 6:50:25 PM
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We are going around in circles.
Please stick to the topic and start another if that is needed. Expence is off the agenda, I only need worthwhile additional ideas. But it seems all must be well so lets just stop trying to make things better because nobody is interested to give an opinion or new idea. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2009 : 8:18:11 PM
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Dear All,
I will take care of the mentoring idea - I am confident that it will be well accepted. It is based on setting up a framework for active networking within a club for technical and "spiritual" guidance. Not rocket science, but this will work if people participate.
However, the idea hinges on people freely sharing information and "secrets"..... we'll see eh?
These things take time - if to be done right.
Stay tuned and take it easy on each other please!!
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Try Everything |
Edited by - Ben on 12 Aug 2009 09:07:10 AM |
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oldonk
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
84 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2009 : 09:29:34 AM
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Joohhhnnnny a dummy spit is not the best way to get a result.
I can see your frustartion butr settle down and have a cold stout and think again.
Maybe they just need time to think about things. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2009 : 08:59:01 AM
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| The dummy spit is standard answer number one! Have HMRAV committee OK use of John Feakes ideas at Southan Classic yet? If you actually tried a different approach to preparing the programme, you might learn. |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2009 : 2:26:49 PM
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| On you Ben, with my limited amount of knoweledge, I'm prepared to give it a go. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2009 : 08:57:51 AM
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'PLEASE DONT STICK TO COSTS AND LOGBOOKS that is not the overall reason.'
Let's have a look at a 'case study'. Six years ago there was a guy racing a weslake triumph 750 in P4. It had a 70s Hyde Harrier frame. When he applied for a P4 logbook he got knocked back, so he now doesn't race that particular bike. The reality is that in P4 he should always have been racing against similar 750cc P5 bikes, and the logbook for P5 should have had the same result as far as his racing was concerned. The fact is that logbooks are not the problem - It's the structure and format of the programme at historic meetings - something for which HMRAV have responsibility!!!!!
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2009 : 08:54:18 AM
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'PLEASE DONT STICK TO COSTS AND LOGBOOKS that is not the overall reason.'
Jon, you sound so sure of yourself on this stuff. Why are you even asking for opinions?
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2009 : 09:17:31 AM
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Well, we know that cost is the main reason that stops people racing and we know that it is the hardest aspect to tackle so we will overlook it for the purposes of this excercise.
Cost, you are now in the too hard basket......for now.
So, where do we go from here?
We have had offers to act as mentors, great idea so thankyou guys for offering.
Now we need to find people to mentor.
The "come and try" day idea has a lot of merit but it would need to be widely advertised to be effective.
I would see this as a ride what you brought situation and if we could supply some bikes to be borrowed that would open it up even further.
Since this is aimed at boosting HISTORIC racing we should have a display of bikes so that participants can see what is available and get an idea of the cost involved in preparing a bike for racing.
I think that if a few of us work together we can put on a good day.
Comments please.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2009 : 11:07:42 AM
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| Great Idea John, why don't we do something like that commencing at the Southern Classic (the display) with the people involved talking about their bikes. We should each try to get someone along who has thought about trying historics. Word of mouth is the best advertising medium. Maybe we could also advertise it through MV and MA. |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2009 : 11:20:52 AM
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I also think we can do something about costs, John recently posted an observation about the cost of parts on another thread. I think his idea there was good, the cost of entering a race is not the real cost, the cost of building and maintaining a bike is.
We should try to get parts discounts with one supplier. Maybe we could open a tender process with the likes of Ballistic, Zpower etc. We could even try to organize parts orders over the net from US suppliers, they seem to want to discount. I have even had contact with bike wreckers in the US who supply parts at far cheaper prices than here, the catch being transport, but bulk orders will reduce costs dramatically.
I had a complete set of forks purchased and shipped from the US to my place (Country Vic.) cheaper than any supplier (wrecker) I could find in Australia. That gives you some idea of the rip off we have in second hand parts here. A mate recently bought a set of ZZR600 wheels for his P5 racer in the UK and landed them in Australia for $200 less than he could buy them in Australia.
I think the clubs could have a big influence on this situation. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2009 : 11:47:58 AM
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Great!
We're starting to progress.
The Southern Classic is an ideal starting point to get some interest going and we should start working on it now.
My CB125 is a very good example of how to get in at the low end although it still frightens me when I add up what I have spent on an as yet unfinished bike.
I can easily prepare a list of what has been done, by whom and at what cost. Such lists could be displayed with the bikes to give people an idea of what must be done and what can be done.
Let's keep this rolling along.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2009 : 10:32:11 PM
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I am not sure the clubs can help, but if the plan for sidecars works, maybe we can extend it. One trouble is that people often think they have a special deal and cannot share it.
But lets look at it. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2009 : 10:03:41 AM
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| How about setting up the 'HMRAV Preferred Suppliers List'? If we can negotiate a 'racers discount' with a few dealers, it could help a bit. The dealers would get more customers, and we'd get cheaper parts if we showed our comp licence to them. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2009 : 10:35:13 AM
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John, you are being negative. Stop it.
We need something on the H.M.R.A.V. web site to keep this rolling along.
We need to get riders to prepare some sort of list detailing what has been done to their bikes.
Those who think they have parts that are on the official secrets list can bypass their egos with a simple statement like "cylinder head extensively ported and camshaft reprofiled". Anyway, people who think like that are generally too busy polishing their tools to talk to the public.
Let's keep this rolling.
How can we contact riders to ask them to help?
Unfortunately my email is stuffed and won't display incoming messages so I am severely handicapped.
We need someone to contact some of the competitors to get them to help.
What I would suggest is an A4 sheet detailing the type of bike, listing what modifications have been done and by whom, approximate cost of the work done, and the approximate total cost of the bike as it stands. The local $2 shop will have frames for a few dollars (sorry John) to keep things neat.
If we could display bikes facing outwards in the garages and alert the spectators to the fact we may generate some interest. This would need a mention in the programme for (lunchtime?) viewing.
Can we keep this rolling?
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Ben
Honda CB350 Racers Promotion - Moderator
Victoria
288 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2009 : 10:38:52 AM
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John F, this is like a dejavu!
First the mentoring, then the "spec sheet" idea. I started a discussion on the idea of each bike having a spec sheet displayed in the pits, showing type, modifications, history etc etc, a while back - I also developed a spread sheet for people to use - from memory I emailed to John for use within the HMRAV. I can only assume it was not popular as I heard nothing more.
Despite lack of success last time, I still support this idea, it serves to encourge those interested in the history of the racing machines and to dispel the myths associated with developing a bike.
My plan with the mentoring, and this could be piggybacked on it if you like (John F), is to develop a discussion paper on the benefits for our sport that active networks can have, transparency in bike development is a big part of this - spec sheets help to fill this gap - along with a system to link people seeking info, to those that have it.
I will seek the assistance of my club (HMRAV) to distribute this paper and hope that it will be well recieved.
Great stuff John F -I am glad we are on the same wavelength! This tells me only that these are long running issues - lets sort them this time!
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Try Everything |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2009 : 5:32:26 PM
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| Ben, I love to see ambition in a young guy. Solving the long running issues in historic racing seems well beyond most of us. It's really difficult to achieve CHANGE! One wouldn't believe that guys who do the radical and race bikes, would be so conservative? |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 12:26:36 PM
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Ben, you are right. We have been here before.
Unfortunately we are, in the main, a lazy lot of sods.
I guess everything has to start somewhere so maybe it is up to us to get something happening.
I will give it more thought and come back when I have a computer that works.
We'll get there.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 2:23:47 PM
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| this thread has been neatly diverted from the main issues under discussion. the most important is value for money for the entry fees paid at race meetings. The total cost is not the main issue, it's the FORMAT of events. Something HMRAV largely control over! Full grids and races in which most bikes are competitive is the anser. You can get that by ditching periods, and running more capacity classes which overlap. |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 7:29:37 PM
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Yes Yes but the the title to the thread is "How to boost racer numbers", the cost of a meeting ain't, in our opinion, the main problem - we agree.
Value for money might also be a problem but so is the cost of operating a bike and the argument is that the club can do more in that area.
The approach must include increasing the numbers of racers as well as enticing existing riders back. Rearranging the deck chairs at a meeting is but a minor part of the problem if there are no deck chairs in the first place. The club has a problem because it has to arrange programs around the available racers, according to your argument glen, its ok to run races with tiny fields. According to ours, its important to increase the size of the fields in the first place. The club has to be pragmatic when it comes to programming. Other pragmatic things might be the stuff we are talking about and we should at least talk about it, if not implement. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 06:56:54 AM
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| Oldkwak, I attended a recent HMRAV meet at Broady, at watched a race with six bikes in it - a velo, two haarleys, some two stroke and some other jigger. The next race was a sidecar handicap, so I went home! If you lose the enthusiasts, think wot you are doing to the average punters? |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 07:06:05 AM
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| its not rockert science to split the four stroke singles and twins from the two stroke and multicylinder bikes, then run capacity classes with no seperation on the basis of period. In history the capacity classes were ultralightweight, lightweight, junior, senior, formula 750, unlimited. If we're doing HISTORIC RACING why arent we running those classes??????? Every race should be a full capacity grid as per the circuit licence. Even if the capacity classes are allowewd to overlap to get it. That way we all get more track time for our dollar, and we might even get a COMPETITIVE RIDE! |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 07:34:59 AM
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| HMRAV are being 'pragmatic'? Is that newspeak for 'we have stuffed it up'? |
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