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keith roberts
Level 1 Member
Victoria
14 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 4:12:40 PM
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re: more riders.
cost of racing: have you ever checked the cost of spectating at both phillip island and winton 2 + 4? when i was racing i received 2 tickets and a programme, which is what my wife & i need as spectators. the travel, accommodation & eating/drinking costs are the same for both situations. for my entry fee i was allowed to race, for my admission fee i was allowed to watch. the difference in cost ( excluding shared-garage costs) was approximately $40 plus race fuel. ITS NOT THE COST OF RACING THAT IS PROHIBITIVE! can we have a sensible look at why some riders will not bring their bikes to race meetings? for years now i, and others, have been trying to change the MA rules to allow period 3 solos run with ANY drum front brake, any size, any source, any year. If this was allowed we would have the existing P3 bikes plus those who currently have to run P4 because of having a post-72 drum brake.i am not suggesting that p4 drum-braked bikes be allowed in with the p3 bikes, but that could also be a consideration. may not get many "new" bikes but will increase grid sizes. why do we not get the 750's out in p4? for years they have whinged about having to compete against the t-rex hondas so they cannot win, well boo-hoo to them! for years the p4 500's have had to race against the hondas,and have notched-up a few wins in the process. do we want 15 year-olds racing historic bikes? parents paying all costs, little johnny getting everything provided at no cost or effort to himself. have a look and listen to some of the mini prima-donnas and ask yourself if you want historic racing to become part of the ' my child will lack for nothing" brigade that is currently causing trouble in the majority of junior sports - including, i believe, junior moto-cross. so, lets have a look at modifying classes so that non-title meetings are not constricted by the MA national title requirements. we can run period races, mixed period races, capacity races, mixed capacity races, mixed capacity and period races, so why not see whatelse will give a decent grid number. naturally, more races for different groupings will reduce the number of "pure" class rtaces at any meeting, but clever use of "mixings" should be able to compensate . |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 9:09:56 PM
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| keith can we talk about your ideas please? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 9:22:24 PM
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glen 20 "HMRAV are being 'pragmatic'? Is that newspeak for 'we have stuffed it up'?"
I have had to develpo a thick skin doing my part to promote race meetings.
When you have proved to bee faultless maybe we will answer your question.
I at least have measurable results for my personel efforts to boost sidecar numbers, I have been public with my thoughts and copped many responses I maybe would not like to have recieved, but people know who they are dealing with.
I have even changed my recommendations to the committee on the basis of more information from riders who have presented a good case..
I do get annoyed about some of the comments here which are not thought out properly, which repeat obvoiusly topics covered before or are designed to simply help the one person who has not support from anybody.
We get many requests for self interested people, but you need to establish credability to get those opinions listened to.
If people think anonymous rock spider comments have credability you have a lot to learn. If you get your rocks off by being abusive you have even more to learn.
If you are seriuos about improving race numbers you will stick to the major topic and come up with workable ideas.
We have agreed that;
costs are a separate issue,
More numbers would help in most classes
We cannot agree to stick to the topic, so I am starting again.
I will also ask David to ping any response that is unworthy of the discussion because we need to be focused, if you want to score points go to either another site or create a topic for others to trash.
So How can we improve racer numbers? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 9:30:48 PM
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Keith, I normally agree with you.
I absolutely support the drum brake proposal and have put this idea to M.A. and had it rejected.
However your emphatic statement that cost is not an issue is rubbish and you know it is.
Cost is always relative to how much one has in one's wallet.
Spectating basically involves gatting there and buying a ticket. If I go to, say, the Island Classic it will cost me about $25 in petrol and what??? $35 to get in? That is not expensive.
Please tell me how I can compete for "not much more".
Do we overlook the cost of the bike, the riding gear, the spares, the fuel, the trailer, the entry fee, not to mention the cost of a major rebuild if things go wrong?
It is an expensive sport and many can't afford to participate.
Anyway, enough of that, we've already been there.
We need to improve our image and to improve our communication skills.
We spend far too much time talking to ourselves and far too little time and a miniscule amount of money on promoting our sport to those who do not know what we are doing.
We can not attract new people from within.
We need to rethink how we promote and where we do it.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2009 : 10:31:11 PM
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The HMRAv uses Netrider, the Tourism web sites, the Green horror and sometimnes the loacl papers near Broadford.
We use the Shire of mitchell web site also and of course the posters around the state and promotional tickets.
We think more local promotion and perhaps going back to the 'Just bikes" magazine would be a start.
We do not approach other clubs, we do not approach youngsters.
I wonder if riders children would take up a 125 or a 250, my eldest son did.
Would others?
If we can promote the come and try through Net rider etc taht may be a good start. A big part of racing is learning race craft and that does not require an expensive machine, perhaps some of thsoe kids at the Metrakit series could be appraoched, they bmay expect a sponsored bike which of course is not on. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 09:00:21 AM
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| The way to get the kids with the metrakits involved would be to run a junior bucket race at each historic meeting. You could also involve older riders who've past retirement age and are progressing into their second childhood. OOPS (ISN'T A METRAKIT A 'MODERN'?) We can't have that can we? |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 09:43:43 AM
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I have just checked the new bike sales for the first 6 months of this year.
Sales are down but despite this Aussies bought 19,187 new dirt bikes in this period.
There were no figures for road race bikes given but I would guess that no more than 10 would have been bought.
The great attraction with dirt bikes is that the cost of enjoying one is minimal.
It is obvious that there is interest in riding bikes but this interest does not flow through to road racing.
Ask yourselves "why is it so?"
I don't think you will need Julius Sumner Miller to explain.
I would like to see H.M.R.A.V. conduct a one day budget meeting as an experiment and survey those who turned up to see if they thought one day meetings were more manageable than 3 day events.
I am sure that there are many who don't want to be away from their job/business/family for 3 days so that they can spend the money they didn't earn on their hobby.
Can we do a relistic costing on such an event to arrive at an estimated entry fee?
Oh, Keith, why aren't you racing now?
You are absolutely in the category that we need to get back into the sport.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 10:10:46 AM
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| I believe the reason many don't race is psychological. We are in a fairly dangerous recession, and we need to look to our futures. If we're to spend money on racing, it will have to be good value for money. Let's be honest, it's a pretty frivolous pastime! That said, if it's worthwhile, it's worthwhile. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 10:54:06 AM
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| John, are you suggesting one day meetings with entry on the day, and 'single event comp licences' available? - could work well! Does the 'old farts' meeting work that way? Isn't it next weekend at Broady? |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 11:27:01 AM
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Hi Glen, yes, that is basically what I'm suggesting although not exclusively with entries on the day.
A one day event with one event licences available, pre event entries as normal but on the day entries accepted.
The idea is to minimise all possible objections to see if it encourages people to come out for a fun day at minimal cost.
Classes would be 125, 250, 350, 500, unlimited and sidecar. All 125s run together, for the others period 2 run with period 3, period 4 run with period 5.
4 laps practice from 9a.m.
11 classes x 10 minutes say 2 hours then racing from 11a.m.
3 races per class, 33 x 10 say 6 hours so last race finishes at 5p.m.in theory.
If we could incorporate a "come and try" day into the race meeting we would have something different to offer.
Old gentlemen and the others will be racing this weekend at Broadford.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
Edited by - john feakes on 21 Aug 2009 11:38:08 AM |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 4:50:56 PM
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Let's have a look at the reasons a person no longer races.
I can no longer afford to race.
I am self employed and can't afford to have Fridays and Saturdays off to go racing.
My job security is tenuous and I can't risk my job by taking time off work.
I am getting older and can't afford 2 nights in a motel and have no interest in spending 2 nights in a tent.
My wife won't let me.
I would rather spend my weekends with my family.
Now that I am older I just can't get motivated.
I watch my kids play football.
My bike needs a lot of work and I can't be bothered.
I am sure there are more reasons but I think the common ones are listed.
You can either dismiss all this as rubbish or have a think about it and start to realise that all the above are valid reasons why people no longer race.
If we are serious about bringing them back into the sport we have to come up with a different approach.
Please give serious thought to where we are going.
One of the subscribers on the Team Mad Dog site has for his signature line "Insanity.....doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." He attributes this to Albert Einstein.
Worth thinking about?
In order to effect a sale a salesman must have a strategy for overcoming objections.
We need such a strategy if we are to move ahead.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 5:30:14 PM
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Good Idea, John
(troublemaker - ping him!) |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 10:59:01 PM
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Quoted "Let's have a look at the reasons a person no longer races.
I can no longer afford to race.
I am self employed and can't afford to have Fridays and Saturdays off to go racing.
My job security is tenuous and I can't risk my job by taking time off work.
I am getting older and can't afford 2 nights in a motel and have no interest in spending 2 nights in a tent.
My wife won't let me.
I would rather spend my weekends with my family.
Now that I am older I just can't get motivated.
I watch my kids play football.
My bike needs a lot of work and I can't be bothered."
They are valid reasons for not racing from people we should not even be talking to.
I must say my personel opinion on this statement is that those people are not the ones we need spend time trying to get to the track.
When I started to promote sidecars I aimed at new blood, not blood with the reasons above for not racing.
I believe the point is being missed, we need new ideas to get new people.
We dont need buckets they are catered for, we dont need people who dont have the balls to deal with wives with other ideas, we dont need people who cant camp or have the passion.
WE NEED PASSIONATE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO ENJOY RACING OLD BIKES.
I will not waste my time trying to get old farts with excuses to come racing, I want to get newbies who will carry the passion and over ride the reasons given by the old farts as to why they cant go racing.
Lets look at this, if you want to frig around with less passionate people its a waste of time.
Please realise that fact.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2009 : 08:38:12 AM
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| Yes, and I want Carlo Ubbiali's 1960 125cc MV Bialbero. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2009 : 08:43:02 AM
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| we're hearing what we don't want to hear. let's start a new topic? |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2009 : 09:01:43 AM
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I can't understand why there is this stubborn refusal to look at a different approach.
Is it fear of criticism? |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2009 : 11:40:31 AM
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This topic started:
'So I ask what can be done differently?
There are about 1500 log booked bikes out there, where do they race and why dont they race?'
And it got answers which were not predicted and fit with the old routine!
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keith roberts
Level 1 Member
Victoria
14 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2009 : 2:04:19 PM
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John F. i stopped racing because i had a , still unexplained, blackout that had me head-butting the entrance steps of the royal melbourne hospital when i was on my way for an appointment. i had managed to cross flemington road at morniung rush hour without remembering anything, so i thought a repeat of that at the first corner of a race track might be a little unfair to my fellow competitors.i then loaned my bike to barry ditchburn for a couple of seasons, had one ride after barry had built his own bike and found that i was thinking too much about what might happen rather than concentrating on what was happening.as to cost of racing, aren't we looking at why ex-racers are no longer riding - in which case they may well still have their bike, trailer etc. By the way, if anyone wants a trailer, see my ad in hmrav newsletter or give me a ring.
John d -- i'll be up at the seniors meeting tomorrow (sunday), if we don't meet i'll give you a ring during the week.
a one day meeting where there are no pre-determined events might by worth a go. at riders briefing we could see what bikes were there and spend 30 minutes working out how to give everyone 4 or more rides without having too stupid a mix in any one race.
I find it hard to accept that a multi-thousand dollar metrakit should be considered as a "bucket"! |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2009 : 4:29:03 PM
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| John Feakes, at the start of this topic we were asked for input about why people have ceased racing, and what would bring them back. I think your suggestions about a different format for race meetings have merit, yet they appear to have been arrogantly dismissed with minimal consideration and certainly without trial. This would seem to indicate the original post was disingenuos. It makes me wonder what the real purpose might have been for raising this subject? Nothing has changed, so why did we bother discussing these matters? |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2009 : 8:52:49 PM
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| This discussion has raised serious doubts in my mind as to whether historics racers will ever get the opportunity to make realistic democratic input which affects the way we race. Do we need to address every issue in writing to MA? |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2009 : 08:59:25 AM
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Keith, Yor comment:
'ITS NOT THE COST OF RACING THAT IS PROHIBITIVE! can we have a sensible look at why some riders will not bring their bikes to race meetings? for years now i, and others, have been trying to change the MA rules to allow period 3 solos run with ANY drum front brake, any size, any source, any year. '
Why would you spend years trying to change Period 3 rules to allow cheaper brakes, if cost is not an issue? The Poms don't have this problem, they allow P3 bikes too run a single disc in certain classes! I reckon we should get our heads strait about what we want out of historics. If we wont period 3 guys out there racing we might need sum consessions. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2009 : 09:08:39 AM
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'I find it hard to accept that a multi-thousand dollar metrakit should be considered as a "bucket"!'
So 'cost is not an issue'? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2009 : 7:29:27 PM
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The original question was not disingenuos, I am serious to find where the 1500 log booked bikes are.
No proof about the claim of expences or MA rules has been substantiated.
The HMRAV ran a free meeting once, no extras turned up and nobody said thanks.
So how do we interpret. that!!
I need proof, there has been no additonal feedback from anybody else. Sure we all at times cannot afford to go racing, usually because a house payment or family growth has occurred. That is not a fair measure about why the bikes are not out, we cannot cater for people with no disposable income at all.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 23 Aug 2009 7:32:42 PM |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2009 : 08:59:42 AM
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| Jon, Expense is only a factor if race meetings are not meeting the wants or needs of racers. The MA rules only apply to championships, and don't specify how other meetings should be conducted. Have you yet done any sort of survey to see if a trial of John Feakes ideas on running pure capacity classes instead of 'periods' would be worthwhile? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2009 : 12:00:27 PM
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| That will be part of a questionaire coming up. We do a survey every 12 montsh now and marc Bondini is looking after that survey |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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keith roberts
Level 1 Member
Victoria
14 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2009 : 12:15:26 PM
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who are we trying to target? we have the older rider, who for various reasons no longer races, but could well still have his bike(s) and gear; and the younger rider who, it is suggested, might just have a ride if someone else provides the bike and pays the expenses ( wouldn't we all?). the former group seemed to be well represented at the broadford bonanza, the latter are more-likely to be stoner-wannabees who would not know a manx norton from a manx cat.
So, do we offer non-race formats together with races at our meetings? the concept of regularity rides has been suggested and considered but there was little or no support. What if we proposed a meeting that combined the bonanza " demonstrations" and races? riders could opt to do either or both, the morning session could be a series of 10 minute practice runs, possibly with each session made up of similar capacity bikes from all periods, riders could then be "graded" into races, based on times rather than capacity or period to ensure a safer, closer mix in the racing part of the meeting. those electing not to race could be given further sessions during the afternoon. entry fees could be set at a minimum level for demo-only riders, with a nominal additional fee for those taking part in the racing events.the bikes should be period bikes but not neccessarily log-booked for the demo rides, they could be , say, p3 bikes with later mods that were no-longer competive in the later period. it ought not to be too difficult for riders to be graded after the morning sessions, even if timing was very rudimentary. at broadford for example, select classes as below 1min 10 secs, 1-10 to 1-20, 1-20 to 1-30 & above 1-30. combine the riding part of the meeting with an opportunity for people to bring their non-running bikes to display, sell or get advice on how to get the bikes up and running. could mv charge a reduced rate for track hire? could we see if there are ex-riders who now have road bikes, and have a special session so they can try track-riding again?
we would need to come up with some acceptable regs and determine the level of interest before moving forward -- could we use this forum & the mv, ma & hmrav websites? we are all full of (ideas), surely ther must be some common ground to make that initial attempt. if we can initially try something not too way-out for the controlling bodies to approve and not too difficult to arrange at least we would have made an attempt. how is the sidecar try-out day configured to get mv / ma approval and could it be useful as a model? how do we contact the retired older riders and get a gauge of their interest - if the majority do not want to ride under any set of rules, why should others waste time and effort. how many of the older non-riders show their continued interest in the sport by coming along to meetings to spectate, or, heaven forbid, to work? can we determine the demand before we try for the solution?
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2009 : 4:18:12 PM
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| here here Keith |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2009 : 5:16:04 PM
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Well said Keith.
I intended to catch up with you on Sunday when I had finished feeding my face but you went before I got round to it (I was parked next to you).
I think we have to try something different. If it doesn't work, so be it, at least we can say we tried.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2009 : 5:16:51 PM
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| There is racing somewhere based on lap times, and I have been talking with others to get it in place for the HMRAV come and try day in December 2009 at Broadford, first Saturday in fact |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 24 Aug 2009 5:22:00 PM |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2009 : 9:51:19 PM
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| If I wanted to race a 350cc Gold Star BSA, I would hope to race in a junior class with other 350 and 250cc fourstroke singles and twins, just as it happened in the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s. Close lap times are desirable , but it is also important that the other guys are on SIMILAR TYPES of bike. |
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