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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 3:57:55 PM
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I notice Acotrel, a.k.a. conker (close enough to bonkers for me) has this comment as his bi-line. So I ask, what is everyone's understanding of the idea of authentic?
I think Alan's idea here, being the purist he is of sorts, would be race bikes raced in the period. ie: My type was raced then but not my actual bike, so its an infidel. Or, merely eligible. So what is authenticity when it comes to period racers?
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 05:35:46 AM
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Jason, I sometimes have the misfortune to become involved with historic car racing. These days some of the rich idiots buy monoposto racing cars from the fifties. If you want one, you have to be in the know when one is about to be sold and ready with your couple of million bucks. One of the guys travels around the world with a maserati 250 F, and runs it at various historic meetings. There are a few of these type of cars here in Australia. There are two authentic type 35 Bugattis, and there is one replica from Brazil which is impossible to tell from the genuine, just by looking. But it is like owning the Mona Lisa, would you want a good copy?
In our motorcycle historics we regard a Molnar manx or Walmsley G50 as being worth more than the genuine item. That simply shows we are stuffed in the head. Every manx or G50 we have is much modified and non-genuine - we have devalued them.
Your RS250 Honda has an intrinsic value far above its current price if you sell it. In 30 years time it will be unobtanium. Try and buy a good TR3 Yamaha which hasn't been stuffed - you'd have to ask Ferry Brouwer to build you one, it would cost a bomb, and it still wouldn't be genuine. My own bike is unauthentic. It is very similar to the one raced in F750 By Gus Kuhn in the seventies. However I built it, and it has an 850 motor, not a 750. I try to keep every bit on it 'in period', but I know there is a japanese tacho and rear master cylinder on it, and two suzuki discs on the front. It all looks correct, but the original Gus Kuhn bike is still around in the UK, and I'll bet the owner it really attached to it. It has a history which makes it extremely valuable. My own is really worth probably about $25,0000, but I love it to bits. All this historic stuff is about quality and attention to detail. When it comes to something like the Paton, that is something else. The thing Angel owns is genuine and not a replica, even though it was recently made, - it is very difficult to value. I think it might be the best investment ever. It would be a real thrill to race it - such a good thing ! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 10:50:20 AM
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| hey Al. any vidio's from IOM 1962 so we can see wot would have been " authentic " |
Allan Greening |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 11:40:56 AM
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In 1962 videos were not invented.
The best we could get were 45RPM sound recordings.
The BBC might have some film stored away.
My question is does a bike have to be original to be authentic or, if it was modified in period, is the modified version still authentic?
I read an article about Norton tanks a while ago and the question asked was what was the proper stripe pattern?
The answer given by a chap who worked at Norton's was that there were various stripe patterns depending on who did the painting and on which day of the week it was done.
So, what is authentic? |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 11:13:23 PM
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They had movies which have been transferred to video and no doubt DVDs, I have a few myself. Why not go to Duke Marketing and have a look for your self.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2012 : 09:55:30 AM
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1962 IOM 500cc TT 1962
Posn No Competitor Machine Time Speed
1 0 Gary Hocking MV Agusta 2.11.13.4 103.51
2 0 Ellis Boyce Norton 2.21.06.2 96.27
3 0 Fred J Stevens Norton 2.21.09.4 96.24
4 0 Bertie Schneider Norton 2.21.43.8 95.85
5 0 Roy Ingram Norton 2.22.20.8 95.44
6 0 Brian Setchell Norton 2.23.32.6 94.64
7 0 Tom Thorp Norton 2.26.26.0 92.76
8 0 Chris Conn Norton 2.26.40.4 92.62
9 0 Derek T Powell Matchless 2.26.46.0 92.55
10 0 Derek Woodman Matchless 2.26.49.2 92.52
11 0 Billy McCosh Matchless 2.27.08.4 92.32
12 0 Mike Hailwood MV Agusta 2.27.27.4 92.13
13 0 P R Evans Matchless 2.30.17.4 90.39
14 0 S G Purvis Matchless 2.30.34.8 90.22
15 0 J C Simmonds Matchless 2.30.47.6 90.09
16 0 B Hornby Norton 2.31.41.2 89.86
17 0 Sven Olaf Gunnarsson Norton 2.31.50.4 89.47
18 0 Roland Foll Matchless 2.32.05.0 89.32
19 0 Louis Carr Matchless 2.32.39.8 88.99
20 0 Derek Lee Matchless 2.34.15.8 88.07
21 0 D W Smith AJS 2.34.19.2 88.03
22 0 George Bell Norton 2.35.11.2 87.54
23 0 Guayla Marsovski Norton 2.35.46.6 87.21
24 0 C L F Anderson BSA 2.36.36.2 86.74
25 0 J Morton Matchless 2.37.06.0 86.47
26 0 E Whiteside Matchless 2.37.25.8 86.29
27 0 Dennis C Fry Norton 2.38.44.0 85.58
28 0 A Shaw Norton 2.39.20.6 85.27
29 0 Frank Reynolds Norton 2.43.10.6 83.25
DNF 0 Phil Read Norton 0
DNF 0 Peter Middleton Norton 0
DNF 0 J S Rae Norton 0
DNF 0 J R Cripps Norton 0
DNF 0 Don Ellis Matchless 0
DNF 0 R Bergsleitherner Norton 0
DNF 0 Ron Langston Norton 0
DNF 0 Tony Godfrey Norton 0
DNF 0 W Syd Mizen Matchless 0
DNF 0 J Gabites Norton 0
DNF 0 J Bullock Norton 0
DNF 0 Mike Duff Matchless 0
DNF 0 A V Anderson AJS 0
DNF 0 Arthur Wheeler Moto Guzzi 0
DNF 0 Jack Findlay Norton 0
DNF 0 Jack Gow Triumph 0
DNF 0 Derek Minter Norton 0
DNF 0 Ned Minihan Norton 0
DNF 0 H Grant BSA 0
DNF 0 Walter Scheimann Norton 0
DNF 0 H Riley BSA 0
DNF 0 M A McStay Norton 0
DNF 0 P Tomlinson Norton 0
DNF 0 Alan Shepherd Matchless 0
DNF 0 Hugh Anderson Matchless 0
DNF 0 Dan Shorey Norton 0
DNF 0 Bill Robertson AJS 0
DNF 0 Alan Dugdale Matchless 0
DNF 0 G C Chatterton Norton 0
DNF 0 Billy Nelson Norton 0
DNF 0 Alistair King Matchless 0
DNF 0 Jack Ahearn Norton 0
DNF 0 D J Wildman Matchless 0
DNF 0 Frank Rutherford Matchless 0 |
Allan Greening |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2012 : 10:02:46 AM
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TT 1962 Junior TT Results
Posn No Competitor Machine Time Speed
1 0 Mike Hailwood MV Agusta 2.16.24.2 99.59
2 0 Gary Hocking MV Agusta 2.16.29.8 99.52
3 0 Franta Stastny Jawa 2.23.23.4 94.74
4 0 Roy Ingram Norton 2.23.48.8 94.46
5 0 Mike Duff AJS 2.24.47.8 93.81
6 0 Hugh Anderson AJS 2.25.47.6 93.18
7 0 Phil Read Norton 2.26.35.4 92.67
8 0 Fred J Stevens Norton 2.27.03.0 92.38
9 0 Ellis Boyce AJS 2.27.10.4 92.3
10 0 Derek Woodman AJS 2.27.42.8 91.96
11 0 Brian Setchell Norton 2.27.43.8 91.95
12 0 Jack Ahearn Norton 2.28.54.4 91.23
13 0 Tom Thorp AJS 2.29.01.0 91.16
14 0 Bertie Schneider Norton 2.29.22.2 90.94
15 0 Derek T Powell Unknown 2.30.26.4 90.3
16 0 Ned Minihan Norton 2.31.09.4 89.87
17 0 J S Rae Norton 2.31.35.2 89.63
18 0 Billy McCosh AJS 2.32.24.0 89.15
19 0 S G Purvis AJS 2.33.12.4 88.67
20 0 D J Wildman AJS 2.34.35.2 87.89
21 0 A V Anderson AJS 2.35.35.4 87.31
22 0 B Hornby Norton 2.36.50.0 86.61
23 0 Arthur Wheeler Moto Guzzi 2.37.16.0 86.38
24 0 H Riley AJS 2.37.21.6 86.36
25 0 Frank Rutherford AJS 2.37.58.4 85.99
26 0 H Grant Norton 2.38.01.4 85.97
27 0 M A McStay Norton 2.38.33.8 85.68
28 0 Sven Olaf Gunnarsson Norton 2.40.03.2 84.87
29 0 Dennis C Fry Norton 2.40.16.4 84.76
30 0 J C Simmonds AJS 2.40.40.6 84.55
31 0 J Morton AJS 2.40.48.4 84.48
32 0 Alan Carlsson AJS 2.40.49.6 84.47
33 0 G Saward Norton 2.40.54.0 84.43
34 0 H Thiel Norton 2.41.07.2 84.31
35 0 Alan Shepherd AJS 2.41.07.6 84.31
36 0 J Gabites Norton 2.41.16.2 84.23
37 0 E Whiteside AJS 2.41.20.0 84.21
38 0 Billy Nelson Norton 2.41.26.6 84.15
39 0 George Bell Norton 2.43.15.8 83.21
40 0 J R Cripps Norton 2.43.26.2 83.12
41 0 Mac Hobson AJS 2.44.04.2 82.8
42 0 Eddy A Johnson AJS 2.44.27.4 82.6
43 0 G C Chatterton Norton 2.47.52.6 80.92
44 0 Alan Dugdale AJS 2.47.54.6 80.91
45 0 Arthur Lavington Velocette 2.48.42.0 80.52
DNF 0 P R Evans AJS 0
DNF 0 Gustav Havel Jawa 0
DNF 0 W Syd Mizen AJS 0
DNF 0 Louis Carr AJS 0
DNF 0 Tony Godfrey Norton 0
DNF 0 Bill Robertson AJS 0
DNF 0 Bob McIntyre Honda 0
DNF 0 J Bullock Norton 0
DNF 0 Guayla Marsovski Norton 0
DNF 0 Tom Phillis Honda 0
DNF 0 Derek Minter Norton 0
DNF 0 Ron Langston Norton 0
DNF 0 Dan Shorey Norton 0
DNF 0 Frank Reynolds AJS 0
DNF 0 G A Northwood Norton 0
DNF 0 A Shaw Norton 0
DNF 0 Jack Findlay Norton 0
DNF 0 C Meehan AJS 0
DNF 0 Roy Bisbey Norton 0
DNF 0 Ralph Bryans Norton 0
DNF 0 P L Schimpf AJS 0
DNF 0 Hans-Otto Butenuth Norton 0
DNF 0 Alistair King AJS 0
DNF 0 Peter Middleton Norton 0
DNF 0 D W Smith AJS 0
DNF 0 C L F Anderson BSA 0
DNF 0 Roland Foll AJS 0
DNF 0 G L Eccles AJS 0 |
Allan Greening |
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Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2012 : 9:40:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by acotrel
Jason, I sometimes have the misfortune to become involved with historic car racing. These days some of the rich idiots buy monoposto racing cars from the fifties. If you want one, you have to be in the know when one is about to be sold and ready with your couple of million bucks. One of the guys travels around the world with a maserati 250 F, and runs it at various historic meetings. There are a few of these type of cars here in Australia.
acotrel - I do hope that you are not refering to Peter Giddings in your post.
Peter is a good friend of all small circuits including Winton. He would be very sad with your comments.
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Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2012 : 10:19:43 PM
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That was a long post Alan - some sort of record I would think.
Interestingly, I recently found lots of old motorcycle magazines in the old farm house of my parents. Some back to the early 1950's.
Stuff like this is sought after keenly and I hope that it will all go to a good home. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2012 : 06:31:15 AM
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Patrick, sorry - probably shouldn't have referred to car racers as 'rich idiots'. I've been involved with the people who run the cars at Sandown and Phillip Island, and it has coloured my perception of the historic racing world.
1961:
You must be logged in to see this link. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2012 : 07:07:11 AM
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Here is another clip for you sidecar guys, it has only recently been uploaded. I thought we might see Orrie Salter in it (his BMW Rennsport outfit is now up in Queensland being converted into a solo - if you are quick you might save it ! )
1963 Sidecar TT
You must be logged in to see this link. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2012 : 07:31:10 AM
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| Jason, I'm not 'purist', but the original idea of historic racing when it was started in October 1973 by Derek Picard and Peter Lord of the Velocette Owners Club, was to have road racing which would preserve the old racing motorcycles. In my opinion it has failed to do that. I know why guys modify their machines, and that has always been part of Australian road racing. A few years ago I rode an original 1961 Manx Norton and I feel privileged to have done that. It wasn't set up like a Suzuki with the 26 degree head angle and 18 inch wheels. It didn't have a Honda brake or a MK2 Amal carburetter. It was the real deal and I experieced what the A graders loved so much in the late fifties. Unmodified it was a superb motorcycle. I know the kiddies want to race and I suggest the Jawa 2 valve engine in the replica featherbed frame with the 5 speed Triumph box, and Grimeca brake is the cheapest adequate way into historic racing which will give a competitive ride. Leave the authentic stuff for demonstration rides. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2012 : 07:55:51 AM
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| Patrick, About my Peter Giddings comment - this topic is really about values. I love to see Peter Giddings with the Maserati 250F and I envy him. If you thought about the starving kids in Africa you would never buy chockies at the supermarket. I know Peggy Hyde gave up road racing because she started to think about what it all meant. My own approach is that technology will provide the answers to social problems, and anything which promotes scientific and engineering development should be encouraged, particularly in Australia. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Jerry
Level 2 Member
South Australia
68 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2012 : 4:27:44 PM
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| The Mona Lisa may be authentic. It certainly has been fiddled with post Leonardo da Vinci painting it. He certainly would NOT think he had put $700 million worth of labour into creating it. The average time that visitors spend looking at it is about 15 seconds and I definitely know it is NOT eligible for historic racing. All the best Jerry Kooistra |
Jerry |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 07:28:55 AM
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Alan,
Why do you think historic racing has failed to preserve old race bikes?
Forgive me if I've missed the tangent, but how did you get onto technology being the saviour of social problems?? I rather think it may be the cause of many, not the answer. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 07:49:06 AM
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Jason, there is probably not even one original Manx Norton left in Australia. There was a kid at Winton a while back with a 1953 long stroke manx. It was absolutely perfect except that it had the 1959 seat, not the one with the large hump, and a Mk2 Amal carburetter instead of the type one GP with the remote bowl. It will probably end up with a Molnar engine in it. The point I'm making is that something like that should be appreciated for what it is and maintained with meticulous attention to detail. It would be the most uncompetitive bike in standard form, but it is what people come to see at historic meetings. In itself it is really beautiful, and it is intrinsically valuable.
If you do a comparison with the historic cars - some are bitzas, but a lot are incredibly genuine. You will not find one incorrect part on Peter Giddings Maserati 250F. When it turns up at a meeting, it is a real buzz for anyone who knows anything about racing cars. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 07:54:55 AM
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Jerry, Are your Hondas visually perfect examples of what was raced in the sixties ?
What is more valuable, a Molnar Manx or the Artie Bell 1950 works Norton Manx, which Eric Hinton has got stashed away somewhere? Would you take that bike, modify it and race it in historic races against bitzas ? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Jerry
Level 2 Member
South Australia
68 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 10:22:36 AM
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| Alan, I imagine the Artie Bell bike belongs in a museum. It is a sad thought that it is just stashed away. I have sold the 2 Hondas so they are no longer mine. To me personally a replica Molnar is more valuable because it is in better raceworthy condition than the aged originals. After all we DO go racing.I am glad that I have been actively involved in our sport instead of spending time on the sidelines pondering the similarities between paintings and motorcycles and trying to come to terms with the words original, authentic,replica and eligible. Go and have some fun. All the best Jerry Kooistra |
Jerry |
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Jerry
Level 2 Member
South Australia
68 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 11:36:39 AM
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| Alan, I forgot. The Hondas are Jerry built and therefore Bitsas. That is why they are entered as "Specials" as required in the Log Book applications. All the best Jerry Kooistra |
Jerry |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2012 : 02:41:28 AM
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Jerry, Fun is when you have the crowd, when the racing is racing and not paddock bashing. I've been going to race meetings since I was fourteen and saw Geoff Duke race at Fishermans' Bend. I also watched Phillis beat Pound, Rumble etc Phillip Island in 1963, and I raced myself for about 12 years between 1967 and 1979. I know what we have lost, and what we are now losing in motorcycle sport. Every road race these days (historic or modern except for superbikes) is made up of a variety of bikes of different technology, and which have different racing lines. We rarely see the top riders really get down to it on a level playing field. The issue I have about the genuine racing machinery, is that it is valuable and is being depleted in something which has little value.
I love Molnar, Warmsley and Summerfield bikes, but the situation will soon arrive that the experience of riding the genuine item from the fifties won't be available.
I'm sorry if you think I'm being too critical, but except for the meeting at Phillip Island, historic bike meetings never seem to get decent gate takings. I love the meeting at the island, when you get to see the MVs, Guzzis etc which are imported for the occasion. They really make it good stuff, but we have very few of our own bikes which are genuine and authentic racing machinery. The only time we see anything of our own like that, is at the old farts meetings, and the Bonanza. For myself, I see the mix which is on the grid in most races these days, and I know I don't want to do that. It is worse than Allpowers C grade as in the early seventies when the kids bought Z900s, and H2 Kawasakis and raced them against Triumphs and Nortons, and small two strokes. It was a messy dangerous mix. Why would you race an RG500 in a race against a Katana superbike, and a replica 1300cc Vincent? And there are usually two extremely expensive TZ750s involved which go nowhere.It doesn't make sense. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2012 : 02:52:52 AM
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| I would like to get Benalla Auto Club/Winton Motor Raceway involved in running an historic meeting with TV coverage, and all the trimmings. However in its current form, you cannot sell historic bike racing. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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Jerry
Level 2 Member
South Australia
68 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2012 : 08:01:23 AM
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| Alan, The past is gone. You and I and a lot of others have lost our youth. It wont come back. If you look at the results for the Internatioal Challenge at PI this year you will find that there was a boy on a P3 500 racing. He was far from the pointy end but still in the first half of the field. Ask him if he had Fun and it would be an emphatic Yes. As you I have participated on the track and also watched and have been lucky enough to see Hailwood,Read, Agostini, Sheene, Cooper,Smart, Pickrel and the list goes on not even counting the outfits. The range of machinery was as you can imagine just as impressive. Both the men and their machines had good and bad days. The tracks that existed in the sixties and seventies are long gone. They may be there but the upgrades and safety improvements has changed the atmosphere totally. I just remember a story I told John Feakes yesterday. A friend of mine has a Velocette from the fifties. It is totally original and NOTHING has been replaced. It has only done 3000 miles. He told me it is as it left the factory. I understand the meaning. However I assured him there is no way that that is how it left the factory. The ravages of time has left the tires and tubes totally perished and wont hold air, the handle bar rubbers are oozing off the handle bars, the chrome is pocked with rust and the paint and seat leave a lot to be desired. What do we want? Original, authentic, restored or replica. To me each to their own. Just remember there are a lot of us people that are like that Velocette except for one thing. We cant be rejuvinated to our former glory. Enjoy the life we have left in whichever way possible. I do enjoy your posts Alan. All the best Jerry |
Jerry |
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JasonL
Level 3 Member
Victoria
240 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2012 : 09:04:28 AM
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Mark Twain said sentimentality was just mental and moral masturbation, and I guess that applies to historic racing in the sense that it's stimulating and invoking one's memory of the past for pleasure. I've always been fairly sentimental myself but lately I've taken against it because its ultimately hollow. I've decided I need to long for the future more than longing for the past. I've even thought about racing modern bikes, god forbid! But then as a P6 rider I guess I already do ride a "modern" bike, no?
Alan, The Barry Sheene Festival of Speed also pulls a half decent gate, not just the IC.
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Jerry
Level 2 Member
South Australia
68 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2012 : 09:43:36 AM
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| Dear Jason, Good on you. Just enjoy the moment whatever you do. All the best Jerry |
Jerry |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2012 : 10:33:49 AM
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I heard a story some time ago.
Bloke reckons he has a 30 year old broom which had had 4 new heads and 2 new handles.
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125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Patrick
Level 3 Member
Victoria
314 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 9:18:14 PM
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John,
Bet he would settle for a 30 year old bird who has had 4 old husbands and 2 new Ferrari's |
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Allan
Site Moderator
National
599 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 11:28:23 AM
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| bugger the 30 yo bird just take the 2 Ferrari's |
Allan Greening |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2012 : 07:59:38 AM
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I couldn't cope with a 30 year old.
I wouldn't know what to talk about.
The Ferraris............yes, I would know how to relate to them.
But I couldn't afford to keep them happy. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Topic |
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Authentic or merely eligible?
